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#9402 - 06/05/08 07:47 PM Re: Mentoring [Re: Amina]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
"but it is understandable that the longer people have been in Satanism, the harder it is to get them to share experiences with every new satanists who turn up."

I think that as time passes, you develope a bullshit/idiot radar.
You come to listen and read what people have to say, you look at the intelligence behind the way the thoughts are presented and you make a judgement call.

You decide if they looking for new information, have another unspoken reason, looking to shock their parents, or jumping on the new trendy bandwagon.

Its not about easing someone else burden, its about testing yourself.

If a newbie, can't make the effort to read stuff, and do basic research, why bother trying to teach them anything.

As a "Satanist" you should seek to better yourself, its not just about listening to other peoples' stories, its about creating your own.

For me, I think that once a person thinks about everything involved with "Satanism" and what it means to them without looking at it as a shock value thing, they get a little beyond the "newbie" bit.

The desire to learn, yet not be spoonfed is a big thing.

M
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#9449 - 06/09/08 03:06 AM Re: Mentoring [Re: Morgan]
darkseeker Offline
stranger


Registered: 05/23/08
Posts: 5
There are way too many assumptions in these posts. For one, "newbie" is a rather subjective term. What may be a "newbie" to one could be a seasoned satanist to another. Just because someone is new to this site and is asking for advice does not mean that they have not spent years reading and studying Satanism and the occult. Also, you make mention about people jumping on a trendy bandwaggon...did I miss something? When was Satanism trendy? As far as shock value goes, I think everyone enjoys haveing a little shock value in their life. I do enjoy reading people's responses to my blog when they realize that what I'm talking about is Satanism and not just Atheism. Anyways, it seems that this thread has a "hollier that thou" thing going on. So when church is over and everyone has come down from mount pious with their golden tablets let me know. I'll be here reading threads and studying satanic literature.
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#9450 - 06/09/08 04:03 AM Re: Mentoring [Re: Morgan]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: Morgan
I think that as time passes, you develope a bullshit/idiot radar.


I have to agree on that. Some years ago I wrote a text called "Psychic vampires and other parasites", and I have been using it ever since when I get questions from someone who are just draining peoples energy and not really trying to learn anything.

That said, I think you missed a category of newbees. We sometimes get newbees who get so stressed out when reading some of the texts written by other satanists, or who see the books and texts mentioned by others as "most reads", that they go into a panic as if they where students who had two weeks to read everything ever written about Satanism and be examined on it. But maybe that is a Danish phenomena. Most of the active who write etc. are university educated and in there 30'ties, and the ones who panic are usually very serious and responsible teens who are still in school.

- Amina

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#9463 - 06/09/08 07:20 PM Re: Mentoring [Re: darkseeker]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
Yes, the term "newbie" is subjective.
Until someone proves themselves (to me), in their thoughts, and words, and understanding of how they express themselves in regards to the various subjects at hand, they are a "newbie". Its not a slur, its just a term.

Ahh yes, the trendy bandwagon. Yes, you missed it. I bought a bright pink shirt with the word "Satan" on it a few years ago at a woman clothing shop that is nationwide. (and no, it wasn't hot topic).

As to shock value, I meant it as just being/saying they are a satanist for shock value. Not really understanding or caring to understand the meaning and issues that come with useing the word to describe part of your own belief system. Or really understanding what it is in regards to their own belief system.

Nope, not really holier than anyone here. Probably one of the most self-centered, strong willed, and nasty people here (when I choose to be). With that in mind, I'm the one you usually want having your back in a fight.

Whatever, enjoy your time here.....

Morg
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#9824 - 06/27/08 12:28 PM Re: Mentoring [Re: Morgan]
Sinthesis Offline
stranger


Registered: 06/27/08
Posts: 40
Loc: various places in New Jersey
 Originally Posted By: Morgan
Mentoring.
I have been thinking about this for a while. As a "supposed" Satanist, the whole idea of mentoring is kinda an oxymoron. Satanism is supposed to be about the individual and how they view themselves and the world around them.

Its different from verbal exchange/dialogue within a group or between peers on the internet or in the real world setting.


This is a pretty big problem I have had with individualistic philosophies in general, mainly Satanism, existentialism, and Nietzsche's call to "go your own way."

I think that everything a person is consists of elements from earlier things, experiences, and people, and I'm not being mystical about it. If a person is the sum of their memories (which I think is a good description), aren't they made of all their previous teachers, and everything they might have read into things that have happened to them?

We seem to be stressing the independence of reading a book. Though you read a book yourself, it is actually just a case of mediated mentoring. Someone wrote that book. I have noticed a human tendency to be easily seduced by text but very resistant to ideas discussed face to face. In conversation our egos are much more likely to get in the way because we have to prove ourselves right in front of a person, but a book has no opinion of you, so you trust it. That trust may still be misplaced.

I know we are trying to divide mentoring from discussion but I think that divide is fairly arbitrary. Discussion is just multilateral mentoring. The line we should slice should be critical reception of information vs UNcritical reception of information. Yes, we Satanists should strongly oppose uncritical thinking of all kinds. Having a mentor is fine if you actually think about what s/he says.

I think the tendency of individualist philosophies to say "go your own way" is actually forsaking responsibility. The "way" of each individual person can be nothing more than a composite of everything everyone has done previously, because that is all we have to learn from. People often look to you whether you like it or not. Now of course you can refuse to care whether or not people follow you - Nietzsche warns not to follow your followers, one of my favorite quotes by him - but you still have the responsibility to decide whether or not you are going to let down people who are looking to you. If you say "go your own way" you must know that you are doing this. And since I think all "free thinking" is merely skilled and critical absorption of previous ideas, yes, by saying "go your own way" you may be letting down even the greatest of free thinkers, because even they too still need guidance.

Wasn't Satan humanity's first teacher when he gave us the knowledge of good and evil? Satan-as-teacher is one of his most powerful symbolic aspects to me. He's the one who is already familiar with the twisting paths of the dark realms and who initiates people into them. He is the one who is unafraid of sin and teaches us our own fallen nature. Satan is not afraid to make a statement because that would be "directing people away from themselves." Satan makes a very strong statement that sin is the path to self, because he's been there, done that, and he knows. (So you know where I'm coming from, I'm an Atheist who thinks the figure of Satan is awesome, so when I say "Satan does this or that" I mean it metaphorically.)

Let's take up our responsibility. When someone comes asking for guidance, let us not give them only riddles, but give them our honest opinion, which is the highest intersecting point of all that we have ever experienced or been taught. They are then free to compare our statements to those of others, as we should warn them to do.
_________________________
accept the darkness in your self
make war against everything else

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#9825 - 06/27/08 02:53 PM Re: Mentoring [Re: Sinthesis]
Nemesis Offline
senior member


Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
You make an excellent point, Sinthesis. The only problem with assisting others along their path on this forum is that it become repetitious and more of a chore than anything. Especially when you're asked the same things over and over, despite the fact that it may have already been discussed in a previous thread for all to see. I think that's the main "beef" most Satanists have with mentoring. It becomes tedious and unfulfilling for the mentor.

There has to be a true connection of minds between a "newbie" and an old-timer for mentoring to work. The ones that do their research, can take constructive (and not so constructive) criticism, and still come back with an eager mind to continue learning, those are the ones that would be worth the trouble. They're just few and far between, even in the vast multitude of cyberspace.
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Nothing is sacred.

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#9849 - 06/27/08 11:39 PM Re: Mentoring [Re: Nemesis]
Sinthesis Offline
stranger


Registered: 06/27/08
Posts: 40
Loc: various places in New Jersey
Oh, yeah, totally. On an internet forum mentoring usually takes the form of "THIS HAS ALREADY BEEN DISCUSSED PLEASE CLICK THE FOLLOWING LINK (which I may or may not provide for you *here* since you are too lazy to use the search tool)."

I was tackling the concept of teaching and mentoring in general. Only once in my life have I had a meaningful relationship with someone I had met on the internet without meeting in person. (For that matter, I've never seen anyone in person who I first met on the internet, except for some Facebook run-ins at college, on a small campus.)

As it happens I might be looking for satanic mentors, so...are there any smart people on this forum?
*Meant as a challenge and a request, not an insult. PM me if you like.
And if you're one of those crazy people who claims to be (1) a demon (2) satan (3) starting a demonic army, I won't listen to you but please PM me anyway for giggles.
_________________________
accept the darkness in your self
make war against everything else

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#9965 - 06/30/08 07:17 PM Re: Mentoring [Re: Sinthesis]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
"As it happens I might be looking for satanic mentors, so...are there any smart people on this forum?"

I would just choose my mentors wisely.
Lost of people here, present and past claim to be the be-all and end-all of knowledge, but few actually are.

Most people with a clue, are still learning every day.

On another site, with a different outlook, one has to explain their history, their knowledge, their understanding, and where they desire to go or what something new is they want to learn.

Its not that people are opposed to mentoring someone, they just get tired of spoonfeeding the same basic information that someone is too lazy to google up or even read the FAQ's.

I would suggest going over the books you read, and thinking about where you want to go before you end up following someone.
Your political outlook, and personal outlook are going to make for some good discussions as it is.

Good Luck in your journey,
Morgan
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#23982 - 05/01/09 11:46 PM Re: Mentoring [Re: Morgan]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
I thought that this might be nice to bring back to the front page. It seems that some individual views may have changed over the last year. I thought that it might be nice for some people to reexamine their own personal positions.

Morgan
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#24003 - 05/02/09 03:01 AM Re: Mentoring [Re: Morgan]
Andrew Malchus Offline
Banned
stranger


Registered: 04/24/09
Posts: 24
I agree with most of you on this subject. I am a "newbie" to The 600 Club, but have studied Satanism and numerous metaphysical and Magical philosophies over the past 25 years. So far some of the knowledge I've gained has been through my own experimentation with Magic and applying certain principles expoused in such books as "The Satanic Rituals", "The Temple In Man", "The Gurdjieff Work", "Egypt Child Of Atlantis", "The Enochian Magick of Dr. John Dee" (There are a lot of references to the christian god in this book, however, if you substitute Satan or Lucifer,etc. for the name god, it gives it a much different meaning), "Hermetic Magic" etc.

Though I don't agree with everything I read, those tenets that I do find useful I will adopt, study, apply, and if it works for me then I will continue to explore it. To me Satanic Magic is a form of creativity and self-transformation and actualization. I would like to get my hands on a copy of "The Psychology Of Man's Possible Evolution."

All that being said, when I perform Ritual Magic, the invocations and other steps I use are primarily of my own creation for as I see it, the text of another is an affront to the self. However, that doesn't mean you can't employ and variate on certain themes you may find inspirational from, for example, "The Satanic Rituals".

A Satanist though is the ultimate unique individual who is within him/herself their own Magical Temple.

/Andrew Malchus\
"Madness is like gravity, all it needs is a little push."
_________________________
Going to church makes you a christian and standing in a garage makes you a car.

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#24005 - 05/02/09 04:08 AM Re: Mentoring [Re: Andrew Malchus]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3151
 Quote:
So far some of the knowledge I've gained has been through my own experimentation with Magic and applying certain principles expoused in such books as "The Satanic Rituals", "The Temple In Man", "The Gurdjieff Work", "Egypt Child Of Atlantis", "The Enochian Magick of Dr. John Dee" (There are a lot of references to the christian god in this book, however, if you substitute Satan or Lucifer,etc. for the name god, it gives it a much different meaning), "Hermetic Magic" etc.

Are you sure it is knowledge you gained and not an illusion you pass on as knowledge?

@morgan
 Quote:
I thought that this might be nice to bring back to the front page. It seems that some individual views may have changed over the last year. I thought that it might be nice for some people to reexamine their own personal positions.


"Most people with a clue, are still learning every day."

You described a bit the position of my views at this date..



Edited by Dimitri (05/02/09 04:11 AM)
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Ut vivat, crescat et floreat

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#24016 - 05/02/09 09:20 AM Re: Mentoring [Re: Dimitri]
Andrew Malchus Offline
Banned
stranger


Registered: 04/24/09
Posts: 24
Dimitri

You asked "Are you sure it is knowledge you gained and not an illusion you pass as knowledge?"

You ask a very important question.

It takes skill to recognize the fine line between knowledge= fact or condition of knowing something with familiarity gained through experience or association - and illusion= the act of being deceived. As I am one who seeks to use words with their precise meanings, and one who experiments with various forms of LHP Magic, I usually leave my subjective experiences at the door of the ritual chamber.

There are a lot of books on Magic that I take with a grain of salt. If I find a certain magical technique inspiring, I'll put it into practice or for a test run. If my effort of will in applying its techniques yield successful results to my personal satisfaction and in accordance with my desires I will look upon it as a form of magical knowledge. Though through empirical experience I have found a good portion of so called "magical truth" out there is illusionary and self-delusional, and nothing more than a waste of time and effort of will.

As far as I am concerned true magic comes from within, not from without, but that is another subject altogether.

/Andrew Malchus\
Sanctus Infernus!
_________________________
Going to church makes you a christian and standing in a garage makes you a car.

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#24019 - 05/02/09 09:50 AM Re: Mentoring [Re: Andrew Malchus]
DistroyA Offline
member


Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 478
Loc: Mansfield, Nottinghamshire, UK
Y'know, you prove a very interesting and valid point concerning one's personal experiences. This has made me think a little bit differently about my own experiences in life concerning things that aren't necessarily fact or fiction, but rather subjective to opinion.

As for magic coming from within, I've always thought that the individual creates the magic, rather than an outside source.

I might sound like I'm mirroring other people's opinions, but the thing is, even though I wasn't the first to publish these thoughts, it doesn't necessarily mean I didn't think of them before I found these thoughts published in a form of media.
_________________________
"A man chooses, a slave obeys." - Andrew Ryan of Ryan Industries (Bioshock)

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#31691 - 11/14/09 02:08 PM Re: Mentoring [Re: Morgan]
nocTifer Offline
pledge


Registered: 11/07/09
Posts: 87
Loc: Khazakstan
hi Morgan,
I see your point about the tension between the autonomy typically encouraged in Satanian contexts and the interest in striking up a tutelary relationship. I found a number of the posts in this topic to be of value, particularly fakepropht's explanation as to how it can be valuable to be part of a group, Bacchae's evenminded evaluations, and especially, Sinthesis' expansion on how mentoring can cross over into learning on one's own.

you and i agreed elsewhere that asking questions is an excellent way to learn, and i think this in part requires that someone be open and available enough to provide responses to those questions in a way that is accessible to the student. I'd distinguish between the asking of questions, learning in an exchange such as may extend to public forums like this one, and what you referred to as "turning decisions over to someone else". I agree that that kind of subsumed relationship can be problematic, and that generally it is better for students to have more autonomy and an education which extends much beyond their mentor.

your mention of groups and money within this topic brings to mind a mentoring experiment that Venus Satanas and i are conducting. near Halloween 2008 we created the Horde of Independent SatanistS (HISS, a yahoo group) as part of a concerted outreach and mentoring offering to the Satanian subculture. we established an ethical foundation from which we could proceed, defined the dual levels of Associate (subscriber, able to read the forum) and Full Member (public, instructing Satanist compatible with our interests and values; so far we've interviewed a few prospects but have found no others to be a part of our project), and determined a dues structure (an annual Halloween fee of $20, for Associates to remain involved, which covers administrative time/effort), and i think this is working out very well. we respond to comments and queries by Associates and initiate discourse on a variety of topics important to those just beginning to create their own Satanism. our diverse backgrounds and interests, in combination with our emphasis on independence, has served a handful of satisfied members well, and we're continuing it again this year.

one thing that has become apparent to me in both proceeding with this project and within my personal correspondence with those who, like me, have an interest in a pact with the Devil, magic, et al, is the diversity of direction, information, and guidance which becomes important in attempting to serve a student and yet redirect them to their OWN responsibility and incentives for what they are doing. there is a propensity, perhaps learned in conventional religious contexts, for dumping one's educational motive and trajectory in the lap of another.

your repeated focus on not accepting that kind of relationship and making the student responsible for a large portion of their studies and exploration is a good one, especially for anyone that gives the impression of being approachable and nurturing. people repeatedly approach me for advice but don't understand how at such a distance i cannot truly assist their process without a serious counselling session evaluating their real interests, values, and beliefs. I won't provide those for them, and if they are going to pursue what they say that they want, this kind of reflective preparation does seem to constitute a preliminary.

you're very kind to provide cookies and brownies. that's a blessing which i do not overlook. thanks. \:\)
_________________________
Troll Towelhead, Grand Mufti of Satanism
http://www.facebook.com/Tr0llT0welhead
http://www.gospel-of-satan.com

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#31708 - 11/14/09 10:54 PM Re: Mentoring [Re: nocTifer]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
That is so nice, you have a yahoo group that you charge money for people to be a part of. There is a sucker born every minute I suppose. People for the most part don't repeatedly shill for other groups on this site. It is frowned upon.

True, although I choose to cut through the shit and get to the point of an issue without all the flowery bullshit that can distract people from the core fact of things. So if you find it hard to teach students and follow your own path, then perhaphs you should not have any students.


Morgan

ps.

Yes, cookies and brownies. I usually leave them out for the demon spawn that visit during the night. They like the ones with extra fudge in them.
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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