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#31713 - 11/15/09 01:48 AM Re: Mentoring [Re: nocTifer]
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Venus Satanas and i are conducting


Oh man, and I really thought that I liked Venus Satanas. I even wear the pendant that I bought from her.
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#78371 - 07/22/13 05:29 AM Re: Mentoring [Re: Morgan]
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I have been thinking about this for a while. As a "supposed" Satanist, the whole idea of mentoring is kinda an oxymoron. Satanism is supposed to be about the individual and how they view themselves and the world around them.


I have to wonder though, does electronic communication automatically assume a peer group?

 Quote:
Satanism is supposed to be about empowering yourself to be the best you can. About becoming/being a leader, not a follower. There are lots of sources for knowledge, and information. You just have to do the work yourself. There are lots of good source books listed all over the site upon which to expand your mind. Use them.


It reminds me of the trending of guru-ism. In addition to that, don't followers choose their leaders? A person can certainly take-the-lead so to speak but it gets down to what specifically they are leading (project, current, mood, etc.).

It's an old topic, I wonder if any thought processes have changed since this initial exchange.
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#78876 - 07/30/13 02:52 AM Re: Mentoring [Re: SIN3]
334forwardspin Offline
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A person does choose the mentor, however I think the main point was that if you just take the words of what that mentor says, and don't seek to learn and test for yourself that it is true. If you do that, you are at the mercy of the mentor(their errors, bias etc.) If you don't test/verify what you learn, you aren't going to become well-versed in it. You also won't be able to apply the knowledge as well in a real test, or be able to build off it to learn more, or come up with your own unconventional ideas.

That being said, I like a mentor as a way to learn. They can be a good guide in terms of teaching you things you can test on your own. The thing that stunts self-reliance, is the approach many take towards mentoring. If I'm mentoring someone, here's how I'd approach it: Give them the information, analyze to them why it is that way, and either show them an example or give them means to test it themselves. This is mentoring that can help a person seeking self-reliance.

There is a lot out there that encourages simply swallowing everything your told whole. If you’re the type that questions what people say that are deemed credible, you’ll often be viewed as arrogant. Remarks from sheepish types such as ‘how do you think you know more about it than someone who(insert token of credibility). The answer is simple, even smart and well-versed people miss thing sometimes, question, test, verify. Many people know specific things that a person with more general knowledge missed, or didn’t pay much attention to, perhaps a copy cat complex, it’s really not rocket science how it’s possible, but the idea seems like science fiction to some people. Some mentors will actually get offended if you question what they say, and I think “wow, really?”. If someone is like that, it’d be best not to have them as a mentor.

I have been given advise on numerous occasions, discouraging things that I knew worked for me, being told things I knew were not true. There are often unconventional methods that are effective, but are discouraged by people in the field they are used for. Many times, you’ll see a severe copy cat complex, where there are certain ways things are done, and even though sticking to it doesn’t serve much purpose for effectiveness, people refuse to go away from it. You’ll see people who succeed with unconventional tactics, but no matter how many times it happens people just go right back to the normal response towards the next unconventional idea(it won’t work, don’t bother testing it, listen to others ya de ya de ya). If you have an idea, what harm could it do to test it?

Of course, as I said I would never encourage closing the door on mentoring as a whole, you can learn a lot from one. Generally speaking, I’m a kinesthetic learner so I usually have to learn through action, but learning from others can offer a good guide as to a direction to go in when testing things.

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#78882 - 07/30/13 09:22 AM Re: Mentoring [Re: 334forwardspin]
SIN3 Offline
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Registered: 05/14/13
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My comments were addressing the discussion of Mentoring in relation to Satanism specifically.

There was a period of time when book & essay writing was feverishly done as a way to Mentor others. Websites and vlogs came much later. Post-LaVey, Venus Satanas and Michael W. Ford seem to do this as a matter of instruction as well as verbalizing some of their own writing on subjects they are passionate about. Both also offer a venue for people to interact with them in addition to videos, websites and books they write.

It's had a mixed response from what I've observed. Both of them have fans/haters. Some consider their content valuable while others find these two pretentious and mal-educated.

During my Interview with Venus (Melissa), we talked about the 'Teaching' aspect. When I commented that I personally didn't see myself as a Teacher or someone's Guru, from her point of view only certain character traits makes one a Teacher/Mentor. In other words, only certain people were meant to teach.

I don't know that I necessarily agree with her (then or now), though I understood what she was saying. Personally, I think people learn in a variety of ways, to include trials by fire. Life experience mentors us.

The issue of identity pins can be troubling. When one identifies as a Satanist, sometimes that alone is a trapping. Are 'you' a Satanist at all times or are you a Satanist when you 'do' Satanism? That's the question I ask constantly.


When 'students' start challenging their Mentors, how they respond to the challenge is usually when people decide to stick with them or move on. These Mentor types are teaching by sharing some of their own ideologies and practices. This often comes across by writers. Some might consider a particular favored author a Mentor and perhaps even a peer, even if they have never had dialogue with the author. So it then becomes an internal relationship and challenge. I call that Musings.

Some write simply because they find most content out there disagreeable so they are merely adding their own perspectives to the pot. Some just use it as a way to flesh out ideas. Forums like this one is a good example of that.

 Quote:
A person does choose the mentor, however I think the main point was that if you just take the words of what that mentor says, and don't seek to learn and test for yourself that it is true. If you do that, you are at the mercy of the mentor(their errors, bias etc.)


Right, so you end up with a bunch of copy-cats that get disappointed when they don't reap the promised results. Some even just parrot off the same insights taking them on as their own without personalizing it with experiential knowledge. Take LaVey for example. He was pretty adamant about writing: "Don't follow me, find your own way." Yet, so many follow.

Satan is often regarded as Mentor; that essence within that has you tempering the core while burning off the rest.
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#78931 - 08/01/13 12:42 AM Re: Mentoring [Re: SIN3]
334forwardspin Offline
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Registered: 03/04/13
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Loc: Las Vegas,NV United States
Having a mentor regarding Satanic views would be contradictory. Skills and knowledge can be mentored, as long as you are still looking to personally test what you learn. However, views are opinion based, which is mainly why Satanism has no moral codes. There is no need to have a guide help you decide your own views of things, they are for you to decide. LaVey was essentially advocating the Satanic mentality when he said 'don't just follow me', but Satanism attracts even those who want to be mental slaves(for image). I hate to admit it, but the truth is that most theistic Satanic groups seem to want to serve as guides for 'true Satanism', though they claim to promote free thinking. This is why I became a self-style and independent, though still theistic.

In a sense, we are mentored by everything we learn from. It could be someone directly teaching you in person, over the internet, or simply reading something they wrote over the internet. I know of Ford, I like a lot of his ideas, he focuses a lot on personal goals, self-reliance and free thinking. The main area I disagreed with him on was his clear separation of Lucifer and Satan.

To an extent, I can agree with the idea that certain people are the teaching types, while others are not. I don't believe individuals are 'born leaders', and generally if you advertise yourself that way you'll only attract a following of whack jobs, but some people just seem to enjoy teaching and inspiring others.

Copy cat complexes end up leading people to believe they can never reach high levels. Sometimes, a more conventional way will work well for you, but sometimes not. Then, an unconventional method is the best way to go. It's crazy how people will often shut out embracing a less followed approach, even if it makes sense when it is reasoned out. The copy cat 'if nobody does it must not work' or 'I'm not qualified to challenge the status quo' type mentalities are the reason, it's actually quite baffling. There are many reasons why an effective idea may not be well-liked or embraced by even other intelligent people, all you need to think about is if it can be effective and work for you.





Edited by 334forwardspin (08/01/13 12:43 AM)

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#78935 - 08/01/13 08:52 AM Re: Mentoring [Re: 334forwardspin]
SIN3 Offline
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Registered: 05/14/13
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This is why I became a self-style and independent, though still theistic.


Best way to go about it, in my opinion.

Ford has his own way of things, to include ideas he holds to be true. In my personal experience with him, he can handle disagreement, it may even have him tweaking what he knows to be true. That's one writing mofo, he churns out books like nobody's bidn'ess. Interesting fellow.

 Quote:
It's crazy how people will often shut out embracing a less followed approach, even if it makes sense when it is reasoned out.


Ironic really. Considering that the LHP focuses on fleshing out the road less traveled.
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#78949 - 08/02/13 03:53 AM Re: Mentoring [Re: SIN3]
334forwardspin Offline
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Registered: 03/04/13
Posts: 509
Loc: Las Vegas,NV United States
Indeed he does, I do know he has written ALOT of books. I like Ford's general approach to Satanism, and that he isn't one of the 'I am true Satanism' types. He has a good balance between the 'more evil than thou, oh how spooky' memes and some of the hippieish Wicca-like memes sometimes found in Luciferianism. It's actually funny though, I read an essay from one of the 'more evil than thou' types, who was also very into the 'true Satanism' crap, which to him was the Anti-Cosmic Satanism branch. This person's approach was very different than Ford's was, and yet he listed Ford as one of the 3 men who 'had it right', referring to Anti-Cosmic Satanism, it was really quite puzzling.

To some degree, conformity will be expected in an organization. If your aims differ from the aims of that organization, then they would naturally not want you in it. That does serve a practical purpose, if it's left at that. However, the rejecting of unconventional methods towards reaching that goal is when it becomes counterproductive. Many times, a unique approach is exactly what separates the good from the great.





Edited by 334forwardspin (08/02/13 04:22 AM)

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#78951 - 08/02/13 04:43 AM Re: Mentoring [Re: 334forwardspin]
SIN3 Offline
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Registered: 05/14/13
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Loc: Virginia
 Quote:
This person's approach was very different than Ford's was, and yet he listed Ford as one of the 3 men who 'had it right', referring to Anti-Cosmic Satanism, it was really quite puzzling.


Do you remember his name? I interviewed one of Ford's proteges he had a different approach than Ford did, and a healthy balance of arrogance about him but I don't think he'd written anything at the time. He is a member of Ford's Order of Phosphorus.

I don't know that some of these working groups demand compliance per se, it's more or less a code of behavior that holds the group/organization together, otherwise the thing just breaks a part.

This is why you see some organizations form and then have some kind of inner conflict and fall a part vs. those that have longevity.

Did you ever come across the League of Independent Satanists? They sure didn't last long. Last I heard, there's a loose cabal in Germany which is just a couple of guys left over from the original horde. It sort of reminds me of the premise of Vampires Nesting. Once they've been trapped together in closed-off group for too long, they fight among themselves and start eating each other.

It seems to be an organic sort of thing with the 'followers', not much different than church congregations.

Take for instance Aquino's ToS, the lower Echelon is expected to carry themselves a certain way to reach a level of skill to Mentor. Once they achieve that 'teacher' level, it's taken up a notch. One of the things I noticed was that the Sponsor of each Initiate behaved much like a College Professor would to acclimate a new student. Compare that to a group of Adept Setians and it's quite different.
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#78952 - 08/02/13 07:20 AM Re: Mentoring [Re: SIN3]
334forwardspin Offline
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Loc: Las Vegas,NV United States
I never knew they're name, I just found the essay awhile back when I was first researching Satanism a little more than five years ago. Here is a link to the essay:

http://occultcorpus.com/forums/index.php?/topic/15075-my-essay-on-anti-cosmic-satanism/

The general approach differing from Ford's wasn't as puzzling as a particular theological difference. The writer of this clearly is into the Anti-Cosmic branch as evident by the title, and the association of Lucifer and Satan is very much present in that branch. Ford from what I know, does not associate the two which is why it surprises me that he listed Ford as one of the men who 'has it right', since this guy is very strong on 'my way is the right way'. This person either is not very well versed on their own faith, or they aren't very well versed on Ford it seems.

I have never heard of the League of Independent Satanists, but that's not surprising if they were short lived. Along with the less successful known ones, there are many very small groups that go completely unknown, because they have no internet presence at all. They just operate with their few members, doing rituals together and things of the like.

To a degree, groups working to seek a goal do demand compliance, not because they think everyone in the world should think just like them, but because like mindedness is essential to their productivity. It would only be to the degree of a common goal, so everyone contributes. Say, I were to bring together a football training group geared towards improving specific skills. If someone isn't interested in improving those skills, and only other ones, I wouldn't want them there. They'd really just be wasting everyone in the group's time, and really their own. If the were offering less used, but effective training methods to help us improve in our goal though, I'd like having them in the group.

When it passes the point of just worrying about effectiveness, and is just about a plain refusal to embrace a less traveled path or less used tactics, it is just counter productive and as you said contradictory to the whole idea of the LHP.

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#78954 - 08/02/13 07:55 AM Re: Mentoring [Re: 334forwardspin]
SIN3 Offline
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Sounds very 'Temple of the Black Light' to me, at least from what I've read so far. Here's a Wiki for a quick overview.

There's a topic on the forum: Here

It's pretty eclectic, so he most likely admires that quality about Ford. That's my take, anyway.


 Quote:
it is just counter productive and as you said contradictory to the whole idea of the LHP.


I think a lot of Internet-based stuff is just kicking your ideas around with people that are knowledgeable. Otherwise, you'd have to stop and explain even the most basic of principals. Some of these 'networks' (for the lack of a better term), start something up that gives the appearance of a 'real world' existence but the reality is often the furthest thing from it.

Not to say there aren't a hand-full of 'covens' but they appear to be more paganish to me than Satanic. Brotherhood of Satan is a fairly decent representative of that type. The head 'Priest' or whatever title they go by then act as Mentor to the group.
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#78957 - 08/02/13 09:10 AM Re: Mentoring [Re: SIN3]
334forwardspin Offline
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It definitely is, I know the TOTBL very well. Remember how I said I used to be into the 'this is true Satanism' thing? They were the ones I thought were that, and who got me into Satanism.

They actually have a lot of ideas I like. Once you look past the 'we are the truth' and 'more evil than thou' rhetoric. I'm into some of their theology as well. The problem though, is that the rhetoric contradicts the parts of the ideology that are sound, especially the free thinking part. If someone is new to the path, the key to learning from what they have to offer is to take them with a grain of salt, and look at the value of what they preach while ignoring the rhetoric. People often make the mistake of just judging a person's credibility in determining whether or not to swallow what they say whole or completely discredit it, instead of just picking and choosing what they like from what they say.

That's pretty much what any internet discussion is, just discussing ideas with like minded people, or those who you think are well versed. If people didn't want that, this forum would likely not even exist. Essentially, you have the well-versed who just want to bounce ideas off each other, and those who are new(to whatever it is)are looking to learn from willing teachers.

I know of the Brotherhood of Satan, they're based in Georgia I think. They portray themselves as an ancient coven that pre-dates Christianity. I'd love to see proof of that, as it would be significant for the history of Satanism. Though I'd like to believe it since I'm interested in older dark religion, I am skeptical. Obviously somewhere along the line their coven would have migrated over here from Europe, if this is the case, I suppose there could be many reasons for that. How any group could survive for so long in secret is probably the biggest question mark, because new members would have a difficult time finding the coven to keep it going.

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#78960 - 08/02/13 05:28 PM Re: Mentoring [Re: 334forwardspin]
SIN3 Offline
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Yes, I remember and it all comes together now ;\)

There's tons of Rhetoric out there, hell I even employ it for tone in some of my own writing. We tend to pluck out what we find useful and discard the rest. I'm sure some of my stuff is discarded and flushed. Plus, it tends to separate the wheat from the chaff so to speak.

Even the knowledgeable can learn from someone new, there's bound to be a question or comment that forces you to reflect on a particular idea to see if it holds water or think of something you had not previously.

You should be skeptical, a lot of that info is spread to attract members (and membership dues). It's all a mind-trap.


There's so many bullshit claims out there, you'd be hard-pressed to find any 'Ancient' lineage to anything remotely 'Satanic' by today's standard. At best you find some references to the D-Theurgistes Optimates (See: La' Bas (more Lucifer-based)) and maybe even the Gnostic sect of Ophites that some consider 'Serpent Worshipers' (Knowledge). Beyond that, it's fair game to make a claim. To lend evidence to it is another matter.

As I stated earlier, there were probably people that favored the Devil (post-Abrahamic) but writing it down and making a formal religion out of it is a hope at best. Folk-religion is typically oral and familial vs. something Orthodox. When it means your life is at risk, a best kept secret.

What is thrown in the 'pagan' bucket is often cults that were dedicated to particular 'dark' gods. The Latin term is used as a catch-all for anything prior to Judaism, Christianity and Islam or religions practiced outside the capital city of Rome. People argue the etymology and use by Anthropologists to categorize religion on a daily basis. Much like labels such as Animism and Shamanism.

Modern groups just construct 'religion' out of cultural contexts, archaeological finds, and a contemporary understanding. If you've noticed the trend of using Ancient Sumer as a basis, it's pretty much because it's the oldest known writing system known to modern man. To this day, the tablets are studied and new translations are made all the time. The collection essentially becomes a codex for making religions. It's by no coincidence that 'Satanism' would follow this trend. Poetic sonnets are turned into 'Religion' and appropriated for whatever helps a person sleep at night. Gods, Aliens, Cosmic Consciousness, Inter-dimensional beings, etc., the only limits are the imagination really; the claim to 'Ancient Roots' somehow gives a new-system more credibility. It was all conceptualized at some point by some one, for some reason. A religion made today is no less valid than one made thousands of years ago. It's as if people feeling around Lemarchand's box, hoping to crack the code.
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#78999 - 08/04/13 03:55 AM Re: Mentoring [Re: SIN3]
334forwardspin Offline
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Oh absolutely, they can. Sometimes a person who is new may have happened to learn a specific bit of information that a more knowledgeable person missed along the way. Maybe they just didn't pay attention to that area, or whatever other reason. Perhaps they teach you a more effective way to go about things.

With any ideology, a degree of skepticism is required just for the sake of deciding for yourself if you agree with it. With the TOTBL though, it is particularly important to not discard everything they wrote right away just because of their exterior. When you look at them initially, they look like complete whack jobs(and they probably are, somewhat). They use hallucinogenic drugs in their rituals, and believe the results of these rituals to be verification of their beliefs. That, and the 'cosmos hating' stigma doesn't help them.

With how they are, they bring on any stereotyping done about them, but from what I know of them the actual members don't mind. Rejection of their good ideas would only hurt the individual who does so. I never go too much on first impressions, they're a good example of why. On a side note though, it is a complete joke when their followers(not members) often complain about 'misconceptions' people have about them. They'll find a big issue with something a person says about the TOTBL, that is actually a very reasonable conclusion to take based on their writings.

Ancient lineage claims are hard to believe, for the reasons you listed. There were probably Satanists in medieval times, and probably at times there were smaller groups of 5 or 6 members who got together and did rituals or other things. However, as you said it would have to have remained secretive. Other Satanists who would have been interested in it would have had to be secretive as well, not exactly easy to bring in members to carry on the coven.

I do notice the trend of eluding to Sumeria, in the RHP and LHP. Theology is usually a collection of old ideas blended together, with new interpretations. The TOTBL is big on the old Sumerian gods, Tiamat, Absu, Kingu etc., and Marduk creating man to be his slaves. They of course, worship the dark gods and despise Marduk. I don't believe in any 'creation' god, only dark ones, but their ideas do represent a key concept, that if you don't choose your own life plan, it's not worth living. Basically, it's why they don't buy into the 'carry out God's plan' type of shit.

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#79001 - 08/04/13 06:42 AM Re: Mentoring [Re: 334forwardspin]
SIN3 Offline
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Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 6664
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 Quote:
They of course, worship the dark gods and despise Marduk. I don't believe in any 'creation' god, only dark ones, but their ideas do represent a key concept, that if you don't choose your own life plan, it's not worth living. Basically, it's why they don't buy into the 'carry out God's plan' type of shit.


This represents a red thread. If you're familiar with Ford's writings, he conceptualizes it as Deific-Masks because that's all they are really. What ever mask you choose, it should be with your own life plan in mind, or else get lost in character.
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#79840 - 08/27/13 05:49 AM Re: Mentoring [Re: SIN3]
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Registered: 06/23/13
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When I mentor, I not only explain the greatness of self worship, but also that to increase power and maximize potential, the control and domination of others must occur. My "students" then go out and bend the wills of others to their own, and since they are already influenced by my own will, by proxy, I have a hold on the people they influence as well. That's a very simplified way of putting it, but I think it illustrates the point well enough. Perhaps it's not mentoring in the way that many others see, but it's a way for me to achieve my maximum potential, while helping others achieve more of theirs. Of course, this comes at the expense of the weak at the bottom of the hierarchy...but fuck them lol.
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