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#8102 - 04/22/08 07:43 PM Mentoring
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
Mentoring.

I have been thinking about this for a while. As a "supposed" Satanist, the whole idea of mentoring is kinda an oxymoron. Satanism is supposed to be about the individual and how they view themselves and the world around them.

Its different from verbal exchange/dialogue within a group or between peers on the internet or in the real world setting.

As a Satanist, you have to tread/make your own path to knowledge. You have to read. You can't learn anything by having it spoon fed to you. You may hear the words, but you lose the internal thought processes that comes form pouring over words and thinking about what it means to yourself.

As a Satanist of any sort, just read the book. Think about it, then burn it, sell it, ebay it or put it on a shelf. Just take the knowledge and decide for yourself what works. No one else can make that decision for you. Before you can say something doesn't work, you should have at least finished reading it. Hell, its even free on this site in the media room.

You have to take responsibility for yourself, your brain, your life, and how you view everything. When you give those decisions over to someone else, you lose information because everything you learn is coming through someone elses personal filter, with all their bias and opinions. You don't always get the whole story.

Satanism is supposed to be about empowering yourself to be the best you can. About becoming/being a leader, not a follower. There are lots of sources for knowledge, and information. You just have to do the work yourself. There are lots of good source books listed all over the site upon which to expand your mind. Use them.

You don't have to join any group to be a Satanist, but if you are then know at least what you are getting involved with before you send in any money.

Morgan,

Welcome to the Darkside,
we have great cookies and brownies
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#8109 - 04/23/08 01:05 AM Re: Mentoring [Re: Morgan]
Octavius Offline
member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 561
Loc: just visiting
As a fairly high-ranking member of the Babycakes Brigade, I have yet to see any cookies or brownies...just sayin'.
_________________________
So long, and thanks for all the fish.

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#8113 - 04/23/08 06:21 AM Re: Mentoring [Re: Octavius]
daevid777 Offline
active member


Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 951
Loc: Hell's Pisshole, Texas
Yeah, I know Octavius is a Lieutenant and everything... but what happened to the NCO's? Saltines and Cheese Wiz, perhaps?

I do remember being promoted to Seargant Major Babycakes status - could we have a dance or something?

Support the troops, is all I'm sayin'.

What the hell was this thread about?

Oh yeah, Mentoring... fuck em'.
_________________________
Where we're going, we don't need roads.

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#8122 - 04/23/08 04:48 PM Re: Mentoring [Re: Morgan]
ta2zz Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 1552
Loc: Connecticut

Well recently it came to my attention that one of our most vocal members has taken to thinking their place here was to be a mentor… Of course they discovered this after playing out the posting game as they put it… My reply to this went as follows…

“Well the Satanist should choose his/her teacher wisely so maybe you are just getting the crumbs falling through the cracks… Did you ever think that?” ~ ta2zz

“Never thought about this - them being the undesirables. Good point.” ~ person playing the posting game

Now on the subject of missing cookies and brownies... ;\)

If anybody wants to complain about missing their rations of cookies and brownies I will hear your complaints... First fill out this form in triplicate and I will see what I can do...

Name____________ Age____ Assumed Rank___________________

Number of cookies and brownies you think you are owed__________

Years in Service__________________

Thank You

~T~
_________________________
We are the music makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams. ~Arthur William Edgar O'Shaughnessy

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#8126 - 04/23/08 06:59 PM Re: Mentoring [Re: ta2zz]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
You Guys are the best.

Hmm, I will have to look into the missing brownies and cookies.

In theory, I should have some time in the next 2 weeks to make some.

Morg
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#8133 - 04/23/08 09:47 PM Re: Mentoring [Re: Morgan]
fakepropht Moderator Offline
Big Slick
active member


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 990
Loc: Texas
On the flip side, there is much to be gained by being a member of a group. Take this site for example. We are a group of like minded individuals feeding off recommendations, opinions, and insight gained by other members. No one here is necessarily dispensing the one and only truth. We are able to interact and take a piece of this and that and put in our satanic bag to be used later to shape our continued growth. Through debate and the expression of opinion, one can see they may be on the wrong track, or open a door to a new way of thinking.

Similarly, I am a member of an offline group of local satanists. We don't have a leader. We don't have a set of laws or do's and dont's (well a few, but they are for privacy issues). We don't have to contribute a dime. Anyone can arrange a meeting with any kind of topic they chose. It's up to the member if they wish to attend. We have had family picnics and bbq's, outings to movies and museums, dinner parties, serious group rituals, trips to haunted sites. At each of our gatherings, the group is free to interact and discuss amongst ourselves new topics. Therefore, we are always growing and exchanging new ideas. We have had speakers at some of our meetings. Introducing us to their latest books, artwork, essays, music, etc. At our member only meetings, we are asked to bring something new as "show and tell" to perhaps allow the members to benefit from something they might not know was out there. It doesn't have to be a product. It can be an essay, a short story, video, or a re-telling of a ritual or experience that worked out well or not for a member. We can then discuss that person's topic, offer advice, praise them, condemn them, etc.

On the subject of the missing cookies and brownies, I think I ate them last weekend at 3 in the morning after binge drinking and gambling. Sorry, I was fucking hungry!
_________________________
Beer, the reason I get up every afternoon.

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#8152 - 04/24/08 07:10 PM Re: Mentoring [Re: fakepropht]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
"On the subject of the missing cookies and brownies, I think I ate them last weekend at 3 in the morning after binge drinking and gambling. Sorry, I was fucking hungry!"

Dude, how did you get into my kitchen?
I thought it was the cats.
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#8155 - 04/24/08 08:23 PM Re: Mentoring [Re: Morgan]
fakepropht Moderator Offline
Big Slick
active member


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 990
Loc: Texas
I astral projected my ass there and feasted like a demon. Good thing cats love me, otherwise they might have given me away. I must admit, I wasn't alone. I took a couple of demons with me that I called up in a ritual. I figured after seeing my Aces beat one too many times, it was time to bring hell down on my opponents. Unfortunately, my demons only seemed interesting in eating and drinking. After they cleaned out my fridge and licquor cabinet, we roamed the astral planes in search of more. Your's happened to be the second stop on our search. Yummy, btw.
_________________________
Beer, the reason I get up every afternoon.

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#8178 - 04/25/08 07:05 PM Re: Mentoring [Re: fakepropht]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
Gee, thank you. I should be making more soon.

I am not going to ask how the demons knew my house.
The again the freddy kruger on the front door kinda gives it away.
At least you guys missed the freezer with the tequila, blauhouse, and abscent in it.

M
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#8211 - 04/27/08 04:45 AM Re: Mentoring [Re: fakepropht]
Octavius Offline
member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 561
Loc: just visiting
 Originally Posted By: fakepropht
I astral projected my ass there and feasted like a demon. Good thing cats love me, otherwise they might have given me away. I must admit, I wasn't alone. I took a couple of demons with me that I called up in a ritual. I figured after seeing my Aces beat one too many times, it was time to bring hell down on my opponents. Unfortunately, my demons only seemed interesting in eating and drinking. After they cleaned out my fridge and licquor cabinet, we roamed the astral planes in search of more. Your's happened to be the second stop on our search. Yummy, btw.


We'll let Morg decide the rankings, but as a member of the Babycakes Brigade, I take issue with your assumptive munching of said Babycakes Brownies and cookies without giving the rest of us our due. You know we need such treats in order to continue our work for The Cause. Next time, you'll get more than what's coming to you.

On a serious note, I've greatly benefited from generous mentoring here. But to echo what has already been said, choose your mentors wisely. There are those among us who are little more than posturing charlatans.

Sincerely,
Octavius, Sub-Lord of the Babycakes Brigade (and hungry for sweeties)


Edited by Octavius (04/27/08 04:50 AM)
Edit Reason: adding relevence
_________________________
So long, and thanks for all the fish.

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#8232 - 04/27/08 08:58 PM Re: Mentoring [Re: Octavius]
School Bully Offline
member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 142
Loc: Melbourne
 Originally Posted By: Octavius


On a serious note, I've greatly benefited from generous mentoring here. But to echo what has already been said, choose your mentors wisely. There are those among us who are little more than posturing charlatans.


I could not have put it better myself. You took the words right out of my mouth, Octavius.

Perhaps as you, I've always thought that the Satanic Bible should be properly placed into the section of "self-help" in any good bookshop. Perhaps nudged inbetween Tony Robbins and Dr Phil. Certainly not the "occult" section.

But Anton LaVey - in life, ahhh, what a genius performer that man truly was.

There are indeed those among us, Octavius, little more than posturing charlatans. Weren’t sheep born to be fleeced?

.
_________________________
.


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#8244 - 04/28/08 05:56 AM Re: Mentoring [Re: Octavius]
daevid777 Offline
active member


Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 951
Loc: Hell's Pisshole, Texas
Alright Octavius... what the fuck? You're getting promotions now? Behind my back? First you're Lieutenant Babycakes, and now you're Sublord of the Babycakes Brigade?

What the hell is a Sub-Lord anyway?

The shit of it is, I think you still out-rank me... fuck.

Anyways, back to the show... I have two cats, and they don't take kindly to astral beings, and unless you're really into spinach and Feta cheese, you'd best stay away. The chocolate cake was eaten by my kids - those punk asses.
_________________________
Where we're going, we don't need roads.

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#8255 - 04/28/08 07:19 PM Re: Mentoring [Re: daevid777]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
hmm, looks like I have to make time to make more brownies.
Then hide them from the various astral projected people, demons, and such.
and to think of it, my vegatable lazana is better than the brownies.

Morg
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#8258 - 04/28/08 07:49 PM Re: Mentoring [Re: Morgan]
ZephyrGirl Offline
R.I.P.
active member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 706
Loc: Adelaide Australia
Yummy, now you've got my mouth watering too!

I kind of look towards you as a mentor, but not in the strict sense of the word. I guess it's really a respect thing. I respect you, so I try and earn your respect back. In doing so, I might read something you've suggested, or try to find the lesson in a post, but I wouldn't want to be spoon fed anything. I've always much preffered learning through my own actions, although watching others mistakes can be a lesson for all.

Zeph
_________________________
Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass -
It's about learning to dance in the rain.


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#8265 - 04/29/08 12:43 AM Re: Mentoring [Re: ZephyrGirl]
Isaak w shipley Offline
member


Registered: 03/06/08
Posts: 112
Loc: Tenneessee
I would like to bring to the attention of Heriticks like,me,for instance.The horned god-flows through my annoited veins tonight.I see all the creatures feeling rebellious under this rock-the-vote-moon.Do you feel the rebellion,I know you do.I see the lust for life,sex,drugs,Magick and knowlege.I see that the church hated me so much that they put my image on their quote "Devil" I see they have been blinded by this because the ancients loved me just fine like Red Wine.I am their flesh and they deny me in my own world,and the world they inhabit.I feel they should look real-hard at the face in the distorted mirror of vainity before dismissing me.Since they deny me I make a fool of them,using the good old cannon verse across the heart of my flesh,the 3:16th century if you know about me.Here in the bible-belt,using their sign against them has it's purks.I found that it keeps them guessing who they are or what they really serve,witch is themselves,no you din't but yes I did.Since they enslave me I use the sign as a reverse trickery of a symbol which if you know the tarots,the cards can go both ways,divine or trickery.The Magick sparks,the magician,and the emperess or
Red Queen,to the rebbit or Crone,are all connected like all religion or hypnotizing creative thinking.Think about it.Christ was a ceremonial witch or shaman.Helping with words and believing in the self to get things done,not anyone else.I think they who are inside the cult of slavery should exaime this and realize that they do not serve god but only themselves,not one christian I know helps to save the world just pollute like the rest,on the other hand also when I plant seeds or a tree in the ground for the divine mother-earth a christian would come by and cut it down,if it where bothering them in any-shape form,and fashion,they say we are of god,but spit at all humanity,to me if there is a hell they will see it before me.



"To Hell with you."
Hypocrites............

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#8275 - 04/29/08 05:29 PM Re: Mentoring [Re: Isaak w shipley]
Isaak w shipley Offline
member


Registered: 03/06/08
Posts: 112
Loc: Tenneessee
Im am still confused and in-self-denial.I want everyone to know that,It's not just heresy or being a punk to the people of hard core Satanist,that follow La-vey's or Crowley's theme's to the core,or just to piss the Church off,either.I am a theist some say I hear your voice as I write things at this moment.I am studing all the major Orders,of the 9th degree rules and fleeting,banishing,and self-serving Magick.I am not denying that I have a beef with the Liars and hypocrites who deny themselves,and will fall into a tail-spin-because Trying to stay self-rightous for your self-serving-beliefs,are a abomination to the animal you are inside.Bumpin on the Cure,taking some poppy and Morphing with my dreams at this moment in time I am medicated,not sedated to my dreams,feelings,and of-course Morpheous-The great-helps the numbing-right along.I feel that to be a true Magician,and Satanist that first you have to be accepted as a automatic Heretick of the church.Right or wrong,I reach out on a limb today to see if somebody will help in my conquest for the knowlege and themes of the Worship.If not I am teaching my-self-regardless.I-have a picture of Crowley I study in his full bright-light of darkness which the doors to zepp studied.I believe that Washinton and franklin,were partners to the full.One The warlord,the other,the chess playing Celeberty,also in their Masonick uniforms,so tell me there is no connection,tell me I lie,or am confused,but I know Im not,I see the Master-game-picture here under the veil of silence.I see the connection in the bills I pay,spend with the all seeing Eye on the back,So am I wrong.I will study to the best of my ability and hopefully,no,I will find what I need.I you ablige your opinion I will gladly Debate....


"Help"

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#8278 - 04/29/08 07:06 PM Re: Mentoring [Re: Isaak w shipley]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
"Christ was a ceremonial witch or shaman.Helping with words and believing in the self to get things done,not anyone else"

They actually thought he was a dangerous rabble rouser who caused too much trouble hence, the killed him.

"a tree in the ground for the divine mother-earth"
wow, you are a pagan satanist....

"they say we are of god,but spit at all humanity
actually they think everyone but themselves is going to hell, hence they try to convert everyone still sending out missionaries to africa na d such places.

why wont you write using proper english grammer?
it would make more sense and make your posts more readable and intelligent

Morg
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#8281 - 04/29/08 09:39 PM Re: Mentoring [Re: Morgan]
Isaak w shipley Offline
member


Registered: 03/06/08
Posts: 112
Loc: Tenneessee
Thank you.
I am frustrated by my typing ability.
Sometimes all is well,however it seems that
I do have a problem that needs solving.
I am smart,but dumb at typing.
I need to slow my process of hyper-active nature down a bit.
This I hope looks alittle better since I am peaceful during the night.Always hyper-crazy in the day,but after mid-night
or at dusk also. Very calm and knowing the sun is going down.
I am such a slob at times with keys.
More Patience needed.



"Hail-satan"

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#8287 - 04/30/08 12:43 AM Re: Mentoring [Re: Isaak w shipley]
PigFeeder Offline
member


Registered: 03/17/08
Posts: 294
Loc: Near Montreal, QC
That does look a bit better, I've already suggested to you Isaak that you at least use a space after your periods. Otherwise your posts are extremely difficult to read and make the reader discouraged. When I read your posts I find myself often giving up half way through. Hopefully from now your posts change a bit.


Take care.
~~Snow~~.
_________________________
For all murderers, I am the leader.
Forever, Rob, The 49 PigFeeder.
NecroMantic Sin.

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#8333 - 05/01/08 08:17 PM Re: Mentoring [Re: Isaak w shipley]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
Wow, thank you so much.
It is so much easier to read.
\:\)

Morgan

(No sarcasm at all)
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#8789 - 05/17/08 11:51 PM Re: Mentoring [Re: Morgan]
Bacchae Offline
Satan's White Trash Neighbor
member


Registered: 05/13/08
Posts: 438
Loc: los angeles
 Originally Posted By: Morgan


"a tree in the ground for the divine mother-earth"
wow, you are a pagan satanist....



so am i. except i dont just hug trees...

actually I clicked on this thread because I thought Morgan was offering free Mentoring for all interested. imagine my disappointment.

as for the outdated topic, I see absolutely nothing wrong with mentoring, either in the needing or the giving. it is not an oxymoron.
all great strains of thought, concepts, systems, movements, and disciplines have had teachers and students, codifying, applying, and transforming the basics.
without them you are just a lone weirdo making shit up.

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#8854 - 05/20/08 08:09 PM Re: Mentoring [Re: Bacchae]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
Hmm, not sure I want to know what you do to trees...

Dude, not much I could teach you.
You on the other hand, have taught me a bunch, and pointed me in cool directions...

I dont have a problenm with mentoring, its just people should be aware of whom they want to follow and get advice from.

M
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#8893 - 05/22/08 09:38 AM Re: Mentoring [Re: Morgan]
PigFeeder Offline
member


Registered: 03/17/08
Posts: 294
Loc: Near Montreal, QC
The mentor would have to be smart as well in how they mentor the mentored. ;D We all know this but Satanism isn't about being handfed information. Now with that being said it's definetly not a bad idea to have someone who knows there stuff, point you in the right direction and maybe give you a little kick in the ass?


~~Snow~~.
_________________________
For all murderers, I am the leader.
Forever, Rob, The 49 PigFeeder.
NecroMantic Sin.

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#8895 - 05/22/08 02:50 PM Re: Mentoring [Re: PigFeeder]
ta2zz Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 1552
Loc: Connecticut

Just for shits and giggles…

 Originally Posted By: LUCIFERIFIC
But I left so many posts here, these newbies started to write PM me asking me to mentor them in Satanism. So this is why i stay here. I guess this is my niche in this forum, a private mentor of sorts. In a way it feels, nice because i was thinking that i was wasting my time posting stuff up, because know one here seem to appreciate some of the interesting topics i post up.

So you’re an expert in Satanism now? Well the Satanist should choose his/her teacher wisely so maybe you are just getting the crumbs falling through the cracks… Did you ever think that? ~ta2zz

 Originally Posted By: LUCIFERIFIC
Never thought about this - them being the undesirables. Good point. But they ask, and I tell them what I know. Perhaps not an expert on Satanism, just an expert in my own opinions on the matter \:\) but I tell them not to take what I share as authoritative.

In looking for a purpose to be here she realized her calling as a mentor… Some mentor no? First she mentors them then shes conducting an experiment with them… From never thinking she was getting the undesirables to them being her brothers and sisters, now they are just her ignorant money making trigger pulling foot solders…

What can you say to this besides what a pitiful vampire child… If you believe anything he/she/it ever said…

~T~

Choose your teacher wisely or better yet try to learn a lesson from everyone… You will learn more like that…


Edited by ta2zz (05/22/08 02:52 PM)
Edit Reason: Reason number 5
_________________________
We are the music makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams. ~Arthur William Edgar O'Shaughnessy

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#8910 - 05/22/08 08:04 PM Re: Mentoring [Re: ta2zz]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
lol.

I just share what I know and has been pointed to me.
I point it out for others to look at too.
I get some questions from people thru my website, but I dont see the need at this point to "mentor" people.
The knowledge is all there is they look for it or just ask questions.

Just tired today of children trying to fly before they know how to crawl.
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#8923 - 05/23/08 04:40 AM Re: Mentoring [Re: Morgan]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
In Denmark we have very many school children who write on Satanism every year. As the only satanic organization in Denmark, and with no good danish books on Satanism we have had to make a rather large FAQ in Danish and many basic texts. We have "The Satanic Bible" in Danish, but the book is not very usable when schoolchildren try to write about Satanism and answer questions like "how many satanists are there in Denmark" or "How are Danish satanists organized and what do they do?" etc. Before we made the FAQ we had so many questions from schoolchildren and young satanists that it was impossible to answer them all, but today 99% of the questions people ask are already included in the FAQ, so if people don't find the answers themselves they are asked to look it up in the FAQ. One could view this as spoon feeding people, but in the case of young people one has to be realistic: it is hard to find serious information (especially if people are unable to read English), and with all the misinformation about Satanism there is no need to make it harder for young people who actually wants to learn about Satanism from satanists. If some of you answers questions on Satanism on a regular basis then maybe you could try to use some of your knowledge to write more basic texts or contribute to FAQs. This way more people get the benefit of your knowledge and the initiative and workload is returned to the newcommers and not to the old ones who get tiered of answering the same questions again and again.

- Amina

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#9120 - 05/27/08 07:50 PM Re: Mentoring [Re: Amina]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
but honeychild, newbies dont like to read the faq's.....


M
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#9144 - 05/28/08 04:42 AM Re: Mentoring [Re: Morgan]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: Morgan
but honeychild, newbies dont like to read the faq's.....


I know, but they learn when everyone points them to the FAQs when they ask old questions. In our org. people who ask questions are expected to have read the FAQ before they ask questions, and they are always ask to read it if there questions are already covered. If newbies don't want to use time reading they should join a religion focused on belief, not a religion focused on personal responsibility and undefiled wisdom.

- Amina

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#9395 - 06/05/08 02:01 AM Re: Mentoring [Re: Isaak w shipley]
darkseeker Offline
stranger


Registered: 05/23/08
Posts: 5
There are so many diffrent ideas about Satanism...I don't think anyone can speak with absolute authority. I for one would love to listen to many of you share your thoughts, beliefs, and experiences regarding Satanism and the occult. It's not about avoiding the hard work of research but it is very inspiring to hear another person's story. I understand that some think "if I had to eat my peas growing up then so should you!" But I also feel that we could ease each other's burdens a bit by talking about our experiences. Then again, I guess that's what we're doing right now. Like it or not we have all just participated in some kind of mentoring. Interesting.
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#9396 - 06/05/08 05:19 AM Re: Mentoring [Re: darkseeker]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: darkseeker
I understand that some think "if I had to eat my peas growing up then so should you!"


I think it is more about this: Some have been around for two weeks, two years or 20 years. New satanists appear and disappear every day. Exchanging experiences is a good thing, but it is understandable that the longer people have been in Satanism, the harder it is to get them to share experiences with every new satanists who turn up.

- Amina

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#9402 - 06/05/08 07:47 PM Re: Mentoring [Re: Amina]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
"but it is understandable that the longer people have been in Satanism, the harder it is to get them to share experiences with every new satanists who turn up."

I think that as time passes, you develope a bullshit/idiot radar.
You come to listen and read what people have to say, you look at the intelligence behind the way the thoughts are presented and you make a judgement call.

You decide if they looking for new information, have another unspoken reason, looking to shock their parents, or jumping on the new trendy bandwagon.

Its not about easing someone else burden, its about testing yourself.

If a newbie, can't make the effort to read stuff, and do basic research, why bother trying to teach them anything.

As a "Satanist" you should seek to better yourself, its not just about listening to other peoples' stories, its about creating your own.

For me, I think that once a person thinks about everything involved with "Satanism" and what it means to them without looking at it as a shock value thing, they get a little beyond the "newbie" bit.

The desire to learn, yet not be spoonfed is a big thing.

M
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#9449 - 06/09/08 03:06 AM Re: Mentoring [Re: Morgan]
darkseeker Offline
stranger


Registered: 05/23/08
Posts: 5
There are way too many assumptions in these posts. For one, "newbie" is a rather subjective term. What may be a "newbie" to one could be a seasoned satanist to another. Just because someone is new to this site and is asking for advice does not mean that they have not spent years reading and studying Satanism and the occult. Also, you make mention about people jumping on a trendy bandwaggon...did I miss something? When was Satanism trendy? As far as shock value goes, I think everyone enjoys haveing a little shock value in their life. I do enjoy reading people's responses to my blog when they realize that what I'm talking about is Satanism and not just Atheism. Anyways, it seems that this thread has a "hollier that thou" thing going on. So when church is over and everyone has come down from mount pious with their golden tablets let me know. I'll be here reading threads and studying satanic literature.
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#9450 - 06/09/08 04:03 AM Re: Mentoring [Re: Morgan]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: Morgan
I think that as time passes, you develope a bullshit/idiot radar.


I have to agree on that. Some years ago I wrote a text called "Psychic vampires and other parasites", and I have been using it ever since when I get questions from someone who are just draining peoples energy and not really trying to learn anything.

That said, I think you missed a category of newbees. We sometimes get newbees who get so stressed out when reading some of the texts written by other satanists, or who see the books and texts mentioned by others as "most reads", that they go into a panic as if they where students who had two weeks to read everything ever written about Satanism and be examined on it. But maybe that is a Danish phenomena. Most of the active who write etc. are university educated and in there 30'ties, and the ones who panic are usually very serious and responsible teens who are still in school.

- Amina

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#9463 - 06/09/08 07:20 PM Re: Mentoring [Re: darkseeker]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
Yes, the term "newbie" is subjective.
Until someone proves themselves (to me), in their thoughts, and words, and understanding of how they express themselves in regards to the various subjects at hand, they are a "newbie". Its not a slur, its just a term.

Ahh yes, the trendy bandwagon. Yes, you missed it. I bought a bright pink shirt with the word "Satan" on it a few years ago at a woman clothing shop that is nationwide. (and no, it wasn't hot topic).

As to shock value, I meant it as just being/saying they are a satanist for shock value. Not really understanding or caring to understand the meaning and issues that come with useing the word to describe part of your own belief system. Or really understanding what it is in regards to their own belief system.

Nope, not really holier than anyone here. Probably one of the most self-centered, strong willed, and nasty people here (when I choose to be). With that in mind, I'm the one you usually want having your back in a fight.

Whatever, enjoy your time here.....

Morg
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#9824 - 06/27/08 12:28 PM Re: Mentoring [Re: Morgan]
Sinthesis Offline
stranger


Registered: 06/27/08
Posts: 40
Loc: various places in New Jersey
 Originally Posted By: Morgan
Mentoring.
I have been thinking about this for a while. As a "supposed" Satanist, the whole idea of mentoring is kinda an oxymoron. Satanism is supposed to be about the individual and how they view themselves and the world around them.

Its different from verbal exchange/dialogue within a group or between peers on the internet or in the real world setting.


This is a pretty big problem I have had with individualistic philosophies in general, mainly Satanism, existentialism, and Nietzsche's call to "go your own way."

I think that everything a person is consists of elements from earlier things, experiences, and people, and I'm not being mystical about it. If a person is the sum of their memories (which I think is a good description), aren't they made of all their previous teachers, and everything they might have read into things that have happened to them?

We seem to be stressing the independence of reading a book. Though you read a book yourself, it is actually just a case of mediated mentoring. Someone wrote that book. I have noticed a human tendency to be easily seduced by text but very resistant to ideas discussed face to face. In conversation our egos are much more likely to get in the way because we have to prove ourselves right in front of a person, but a book has no opinion of you, so you trust it. That trust may still be misplaced.

I know we are trying to divide mentoring from discussion but I think that divide is fairly arbitrary. Discussion is just multilateral mentoring. The line we should slice should be critical reception of information vs UNcritical reception of information. Yes, we Satanists should strongly oppose uncritical thinking of all kinds. Having a mentor is fine if you actually think about what s/he says.

I think the tendency of individualist philosophies to say "go your own way" is actually forsaking responsibility. The "way" of each individual person can be nothing more than a composite of everything everyone has done previously, because that is all we have to learn from. People often look to you whether you like it or not. Now of course you can refuse to care whether or not people follow you - Nietzsche warns not to follow your followers, one of my favorite quotes by him - but you still have the responsibility to decide whether or not you are going to let down people who are looking to you. If you say "go your own way" you must know that you are doing this. And since I think all "free thinking" is merely skilled and critical absorption of previous ideas, yes, by saying "go your own way" you may be letting down even the greatest of free thinkers, because even they too still need guidance.

Wasn't Satan humanity's first teacher when he gave us the knowledge of good and evil? Satan-as-teacher is one of his most powerful symbolic aspects to me. He's the one who is already familiar with the twisting paths of the dark realms and who initiates people into them. He is the one who is unafraid of sin and teaches us our own fallen nature. Satan is not afraid to make a statement because that would be "directing people away from themselves." Satan makes a very strong statement that sin is the path to self, because he's been there, done that, and he knows. (So you know where I'm coming from, I'm an Atheist who thinks the figure of Satan is awesome, so when I say "Satan does this or that" I mean it metaphorically.)

Let's take up our responsibility. When someone comes asking for guidance, let us not give them only riddles, but give them our honest opinion, which is the highest intersecting point of all that we have ever experienced or been taught. They are then free to compare our statements to those of others, as we should warn them to do.
_________________________
accept the darkness in your self
make war against everything else

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#9825 - 06/27/08 02:53 PM Re: Mentoring [Re: Sinthesis]
Nemesis Offline
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Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
You make an excellent point, Sinthesis. The only problem with assisting others along their path on this forum is that it become repetitious and more of a chore than anything. Especially when you're asked the same things over and over, despite the fact that it may have already been discussed in a previous thread for all to see. I think that's the main "beef" most Satanists have with mentoring. It becomes tedious and unfulfilling for the mentor.

There has to be a true connection of minds between a "newbie" and an old-timer for mentoring to work. The ones that do their research, can take constructive (and not so constructive) criticism, and still come back with an eager mind to continue learning, those are the ones that would be worth the trouble. They're just few and far between, even in the vast multitude of cyberspace.
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#9849 - 06/27/08 11:39 PM Re: Mentoring [Re: Nemesis]
Sinthesis Offline
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Registered: 06/27/08
Posts: 40
Loc: various places in New Jersey
Oh, yeah, totally. On an internet forum mentoring usually takes the form of "THIS HAS ALREADY BEEN DISCUSSED PLEASE CLICK THE FOLLOWING LINK (which I may or may not provide for you *here* since you are too lazy to use the search tool)."

I was tackling the concept of teaching and mentoring in general. Only once in my life have I had a meaningful relationship with someone I had met on the internet without meeting in person. (For that matter, I've never seen anyone in person who I first met on the internet, except for some Facebook run-ins at college, on a small campus.)

As it happens I might be looking for satanic mentors, so...are there any smart people on this forum?
*Meant as a challenge and a request, not an insult. PM me if you like.
And if you're one of those crazy people who claims to be (1) a demon (2) satan (3) starting a demonic army, I won't listen to you but please PM me anyway for giggles.
_________________________
accept the darkness in your self
make war against everything else

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#9965 - 06/30/08 07:17 PM Re: Mentoring [Re: Sinthesis]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
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Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
"As it happens I might be looking for satanic mentors, so...are there any smart people on this forum?"

I would just choose my mentors wisely.
Lost of people here, present and past claim to be the be-all and end-all of knowledge, but few actually are.

Most people with a clue, are still learning every day.

On another site, with a different outlook, one has to explain their history, their knowledge, their understanding, and where they desire to go or what something new is they want to learn.

Its not that people are opposed to mentoring someone, they just get tired of spoonfeeding the same basic information that someone is too lazy to google up or even read the FAQ's.

I would suggest going over the books you read, and thinking about where you want to go before you end up following someone.
Your political outlook, and personal outlook are going to make for some good discussions as it is.

Good Luck in your journey,
Morgan
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#23982 - 05/01/09 11:46 PM Re: Mentoring [Re: Morgan]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
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Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
I thought that this might be nice to bring back to the front page. It seems that some individual views may have changed over the last year. I thought that it might be nice for some people to reexamine their own personal positions.

Morgan
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#24003 - 05/02/09 03:01 AM Re: Mentoring [Re: Morgan]
Andrew Malchus Offline
Banned
stranger


Registered: 04/24/09
Posts: 24
I agree with most of you on this subject. I am a "newbie" to The 600 Club, but have studied Satanism and numerous metaphysical and Magical philosophies over the past 25 years. So far some of the knowledge I've gained has been through my own experimentation with Magic and applying certain principles expoused in such books as "The Satanic Rituals", "The Temple In Man", "The Gurdjieff Work", "Egypt Child Of Atlantis", "The Enochian Magick of Dr. John Dee" (There are a lot of references to the christian god in this book, however, if you substitute Satan or Lucifer,etc. for the name god, it gives it a much different meaning), "Hermetic Magic" etc.

Though I don't agree with everything I read, those tenets that I do find useful I will adopt, study, apply, and if it works for me then I will continue to explore it. To me Satanic Magic is a form of creativity and self-transformation and actualization. I would like to get my hands on a copy of "The Psychology Of Man's Possible Evolution."

All that being said, when I perform Ritual Magic, the invocations and other steps I use are primarily of my own creation for as I see it, the text of another is an affront to the self. However, that doesn't mean you can't employ and variate on certain themes you may find inspirational from, for example, "The Satanic Rituals".

A Satanist though is the ultimate unique individual who is within him/herself their own Magical Temple.

/Andrew Malchus\
"Madness is like gravity, all it needs is a little push."
_________________________
Going to church makes you a christian and standing in a garage makes you a car.

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#24005 - 05/02/09 04:08 AM Re: Mentoring [Re: Andrew Malchus]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3153
 Quote:
So far some of the knowledge I've gained has been through my own experimentation with Magic and applying certain principles expoused in such books as "The Satanic Rituals", "The Temple In Man", "The Gurdjieff Work", "Egypt Child Of Atlantis", "The Enochian Magick of Dr. John Dee" (There are a lot of references to the christian god in this book, however, if you substitute Satan or Lucifer,etc. for the name god, it gives it a much different meaning), "Hermetic Magic" etc.

Are you sure it is knowledge you gained and not an illusion you pass on as knowledge?

@morgan
 Quote:
I thought that this might be nice to bring back to the front page. It seems that some individual views may have changed over the last year. I thought that it might be nice for some people to reexamine their own personal positions.


"Most people with a clue, are still learning every day."

You described a bit the position of my views at this date..



Edited by Dimitri (05/02/09 04:11 AM)
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#24016 - 05/02/09 09:20 AM Re: Mentoring [Re: Dimitri]
Andrew Malchus Offline
Banned
stranger


Registered: 04/24/09
Posts: 24
Dimitri

You asked "Are you sure it is knowledge you gained and not an illusion you pass as knowledge?"

You ask a very important question.

It takes skill to recognize the fine line between knowledge= fact or condition of knowing something with familiarity gained through experience or association - and illusion= the act of being deceived. As I am one who seeks to use words with their precise meanings, and one who experiments with various forms of LHP Magic, I usually leave my subjective experiences at the door of the ritual chamber.

There are a lot of books on Magic that I take with a grain of salt. If I find a certain magical technique inspiring, I'll put it into practice or for a test run. If my effort of will in applying its techniques yield successful results to my personal satisfaction and in accordance with my desires I will look upon it as a form of magical knowledge. Though through empirical experience I have found a good portion of so called "magical truth" out there is illusionary and self-delusional, and nothing more than a waste of time and effort of will.

As far as I am concerned true magic comes from within, not from without, but that is another subject altogether.

/Andrew Malchus\
Sanctus Infernus!
_________________________
Going to church makes you a christian and standing in a garage makes you a car.

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#24019 - 05/02/09 09:50 AM Re: Mentoring [Re: Andrew Malchus]
DistroyA Offline
member


Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 478
Loc: Mansfield, Nottinghamshire, UK
Y'know, you prove a very interesting and valid point concerning one's personal experiences. This has made me think a little bit differently about my own experiences in life concerning things that aren't necessarily fact or fiction, but rather subjective to opinion.

As for magic coming from within, I've always thought that the individual creates the magic, rather than an outside source.

I might sound like I'm mirroring other people's opinions, but the thing is, even though I wasn't the first to publish these thoughts, it doesn't necessarily mean I didn't think of them before I found these thoughts published in a form of media.
_________________________
"A man chooses, a slave obeys." - Andrew Ryan of Ryan Industries (Bioshock)

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#31691 - 11/14/09 02:08 PM Re: Mentoring [Re: Morgan]
nocTifer Offline
pledge


Registered: 11/07/09
Posts: 87
Loc: Khazakstan
hi Morgan,
I see your point about the tension between the autonomy typically encouraged in Satanian contexts and the interest in striking up a tutelary relationship. I found a number of the posts in this topic to be of value, particularly fakepropht's explanation as to how it can be valuable to be part of a group, Bacchae's evenminded evaluations, and especially, Sinthesis' expansion on how mentoring can cross over into learning on one's own.

you and i agreed elsewhere that asking questions is an excellent way to learn, and i think this in part requires that someone be open and available enough to provide responses to those questions in a way that is accessible to the student. I'd distinguish between the asking of questions, learning in an exchange such as may extend to public forums like this one, and what you referred to as "turning decisions over to someone else". I agree that that kind of subsumed relationship can be problematic, and that generally it is better for students to have more autonomy and an education which extends much beyond their mentor.

your mention of groups and money within this topic brings to mind a mentoring experiment that Venus Satanas and i are conducting. near Halloween 2008 we created the Horde of Independent SatanistS (HISS, a yahoo group) as part of a concerted outreach and mentoring offering to the Satanian subculture. we established an ethical foundation from which we could proceed, defined the dual levels of Associate (subscriber, able to read the forum) and Full Member (public, instructing Satanist compatible with our interests and values; so far we've interviewed a few prospects but have found no others to be a part of our project), and determined a dues structure (an annual Halloween fee of $20, for Associates to remain involved, which covers administrative time/effort), and i think this is working out very well. we respond to comments and queries by Associates and initiate discourse on a variety of topics important to those just beginning to create their own Satanism. our diverse backgrounds and interests, in combination with our emphasis on independence, has served a handful of satisfied members well, and we're continuing it again this year.

one thing that has become apparent to me in both proceeding with this project and within my personal correspondence with those who, like me, have an interest in a pact with the Devil, magic, et al, is the diversity of direction, information, and guidance which becomes important in attempting to serve a student and yet redirect them to their OWN responsibility and incentives for what they are doing. there is a propensity, perhaps learned in conventional religious contexts, for dumping one's educational motive and trajectory in the lap of another.

your repeated focus on not accepting that kind of relationship and making the student responsible for a large portion of their studies and exploration is a good one, especially for anyone that gives the impression of being approachable and nurturing. people repeatedly approach me for advice but don't understand how at such a distance i cannot truly assist their process without a serious counselling session evaluating their real interests, values, and beliefs. I won't provide those for them, and if they are going to pursue what they say that they want, this kind of reflective preparation does seem to constitute a preliminary.

you're very kind to provide cookies and brownies. that's a blessing which i do not overlook. thanks. \:\)
_________________________
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#31708 - 11/14/09 10:54 PM Re: Mentoring [Re: nocTifer]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
That is so nice, you have a yahoo group that you charge money for people to be a part of. There is a sucker born every minute I suppose. People for the most part don't repeatedly shill for other groups on this site. It is frowned upon.

True, although I choose to cut through the shit and get to the point of an issue without all the flowery bullshit that can distract people from the core fact of things. So if you find it hard to teach students and follow your own path, then perhaphs you should not have any students.


Morgan

ps.

Yes, cookies and brownies. I usually leave them out for the demon spawn that visit during the night. They like the ones with extra fudge in them.
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#31713 - 11/15/09 01:48 AM Re: Mentoring [Re: nocTifer]
Asmedious Moderator Offline
Moderator
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 1753
Loc: New York
 Quote:
Venus Satanas and i are conducting


Oh man, and I really thought that I liked Venus Satanas. I even wear the pendant that I bought from her.
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#78371 - 07/22/13 05:29 AM Re: Mentoring [Re: Morgan]
SIN3 Offline
stalker


Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 6875
Loc: Virginia
 Quote:
I have been thinking about this for a while. As a "supposed" Satanist, the whole idea of mentoring is kinda an oxymoron. Satanism is supposed to be about the individual and how they view themselves and the world around them.


I have to wonder though, does electronic communication automatically assume a peer group?

 Quote:
Satanism is supposed to be about empowering yourself to be the best you can. About becoming/being a leader, not a follower. There are lots of sources for knowledge, and information. You just have to do the work yourself. There are lots of good source books listed all over the site upon which to expand your mind. Use them.


It reminds me of the trending of guru-ism. In addition to that, don't followers choose their leaders? A person can certainly take-the-lead so to speak but it gets down to what specifically they are leading (project, current, mood, etc.).

It's an old topic, I wonder if any thought processes have changed since this initial exchange.
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#78876 - 07/30/13 02:52 AM Re: Mentoring [Re: SIN3]
334forwardspin Offline
member


Registered: 03/04/13
Posts: 509
Loc: Las Vegas,NV United States
A person does choose the mentor, however I think the main point was that if you just take the words of what that mentor says, and don't seek to learn and test for yourself that it is true. If you do that, you are at the mercy of the mentor(their errors, bias etc.) If you don't test/verify what you learn, you aren't going to become well-versed in it. You also won't be able to apply the knowledge as well in a real test, or be able to build off it to learn more, or come up with your own unconventional ideas.

That being said, I like a mentor as a way to learn. They can be a good guide in terms of teaching you things you can test on your own. The thing that stunts self-reliance, is the approach many take towards mentoring. If I'm mentoring someone, here's how I'd approach it: Give them the information, analyze to them why it is that way, and either show them an example or give them means to test it themselves. This is mentoring that can help a person seeking self-reliance.

There is a lot out there that encourages simply swallowing everything your told whole. If you’re the type that questions what people say that are deemed credible, you’ll often be viewed as arrogant. Remarks from sheepish types such as ‘how do you think you know more about it than someone who(insert token of credibility). The answer is simple, even smart and well-versed people miss thing sometimes, question, test, verify. Many people know specific things that a person with more general knowledge missed, or didn’t pay much attention to, perhaps a copy cat complex, it’s really not rocket science how it’s possible, but the idea seems like science fiction to some people. Some mentors will actually get offended if you question what they say, and I think “wow, really?”. If someone is like that, it’d be best not to have them as a mentor.

I have been given advise on numerous occasions, discouraging things that I knew worked for me, being told things I knew were not true. There are often unconventional methods that are effective, but are discouraged by people in the field they are used for. Many times, you’ll see a severe copy cat complex, where there are certain ways things are done, and even though sticking to it doesn’t serve much purpose for effectiveness, people refuse to go away from it. You’ll see people who succeed with unconventional tactics, but no matter how many times it happens people just go right back to the normal response towards the next unconventional idea(it won’t work, don’t bother testing it, listen to others ya de ya de ya). If you have an idea, what harm could it do to test it?

Of course, as I said I would never encourage closing the door on mentoring as a whole, you can learn a lot from one. Generally speaking, I’m a kinesthetic learner so I usually have to learn through action, but learning from others can offer a good guide as to a direction to go in when testing things.

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#78882 - 07/30/13 09:22 AM Re: Mentoring [Re: 334forwardspin]
SIN3 Offline
stalker


Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 6875
Loc: Virginia
My comments were addressing the discussion of Mentoring in relation to Satanism specifically.

There was a period of time when book & essay writing was feverishly done as a way to Mentor others. Websites and vlogs came much later. Post-LaVey, Venus Satanas and Michael W. Ford seem to do this as a matter of instruction as well as verbalizing some of their own writing on subjects they are passionate about. Both also offer a venue for people to interact with them in addition to videos, websites and books they write.

It's had a mixed response from what I've observed. Both of them have fans/haters. Some consider their content valuable while others find these two pretentious and mal-educated.

During my Interview with Venus (Melissa), we talked about the 'Teaching' aspect. When I commented that I personally didn't see myself as a Teacher or someone's Guru, from her point of view only certain character traits makes one a Teacher/Mentor. In other words, only certain people were meant to teach.

I don't know that I necessarily agree with her (then or now), though I understood what she was saying. Personally, I think people learn in a variety of ways, to include trials by fire. Life experience mentors us.

The issue of identity pins can be troubling. When one identifies as a Satanist, sometimes that alone is a trapping. Are 'you' a Satanist at all times or are you a Satanist when you 'do' Satanism? That's the question I ask constantly.


When 'students' start challenging their Mentors, how they respond to the challenge is usually when people decide to stick with them or move on. These Mentor types are teaching by sharing some of their own ideologies and practices. This often comes across by writers. Some might consider a particular favored author a Mentor and perhaps even a peer, even if they have never had dialogue with the author. So it then becomes an internal relationship and challenge. I call that Musings.

Some write simply because they find most content out there disagreeable so they are merely adding their own perspectives to the pot. Some just use it as a way to flesh out ideas. Forums like this one is a good example of that.

 Quote:
A person does choose the mentor, however I think the main point was that if you just take the words of what that mentor says, and don't seek to learn and test for yourself that it is true. If you do that, you are at the mercy of the mentor(their errors, bias etc.)


Right, so you end up with a bunch of copy-cats that get disappointed when they don't reap the promised results. Some even just parrot off the same insights taking them on as their own without personalizing it with experiential knowledge. Take LaVey for example. He was pretty adamant about writing: "Don't follow me, find your own way." Yet, so many follow.

Satan is often regarded as Mentor; that essence within that has you tempering the core while burning off the rest.
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#78931 - 08/01/13 12:42 AM Re: Mentoring [Re: SIN3]
334forwardspin Offline
member


Registered: 03/04/13
Posts: 509
Loc: Las Vegas,NV United States
Having a mentor regarding Satanic views would be contradictory. Skills and knowledge can be mentored, as long as you are still looking to personally test what you learn. However, views are opinion based, which is mainly why Satanism has no moral codes. There is no need to have a guide help you decide your own views of things, they are for you to decide. LaVey was essentially advocating the Satanic mentality when he said 'don't just follow me', but Satanism attracts even those who want to be mental slaves(for image). I hate to admit it, but the truth is that most theistic Satanic groups seem to want to serve as guides for 'true Satanism', though they claim to promote free thinking. This is why I became a self-style and independent, though still theistic.

In a sense, we are mentored by everything we learn from. It could be someone directly teaching you in person, over the internet, or simply reading something they wrote over the internet. I know of Ford, I like a lot of his ideas, he focuses a lot on personal goals, self-reliance and free thinking. The main area I disagreed with him on was his clear separation of Lucifer and Satan.

To an extent, I can agree with the idea that certain people are the teaching types, while others are not. I don't believe individuals are 'born leaders', and generally if you advertise yourself that way you'll only attract a following of whack jobs, but some people just seem to enjoy teaching and inspiring others.

Copy cat complexes end up leading people to believe they can never reach high levels. Sometimes, a more conventional way will work well for you, but sometimes not. Then, an unconventional method is the best way to go. It's crazy how people will often shut out embracing a less followed approach, even if it makes sense when it is reasoned out. The copy cat 'if nobody does it must not work' or 'I'm not qualified to challenge the status quo' type mentalities are the reason, it's actually quite baffling. There are many reasons why an effective idea may not be well-liked or embraced by even other intelligent people, all you need to think about is if it can be effective and work for you.





Edited by 334forwardspin (08/01/13 12:43 AM)

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#78935 - 08/01/13 08:52 AM Re: Mentoring [Re: 334forwardspin]
SIN3 Offline
stalker


Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 6875
Loc: Virginia
 Quote:
This is why I became a self-style and independent, though still theistic.


Best way to go about it, in my opinion.

Ford has his own way of things, to include ideas he holds to be true. In my personal experience with him, he can handle disagreement, it may even have him tweaking what he knows to be true. That's one writing mofo, he churns out books like nobody's bidn'ess. Interesting fellow.

 Quote:
It's crazy how people will often shut out embracing a less followed approach, even if it makes sense when it is reasoned out.


Ironic really. Considering that the LHP focuses on fleshing out the road less traveled.
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#78949 - 08/02/13 03:53 AM Re: Mentoring [Re: SIN3]
334forwardspin Offline
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Registered: 03/04/13
Posts: 509
Loc: Las Vegas,NV United States
Indeed he does, I do know he has written ALOT of books. I like Ford's general approach to Satanism, and that he isn't one of the 'I am true Satanism' types. He has a good balance between the 'more evil than thou, oh how spooky' memes and some of the hippieish Wicca-like memes sometimes found in Luciferianism. It's actually funny though, I read an essay from one of the 'more evil than thou' types, who was also very into the 'true Satanism' crap, which to him was the Anti-Cosmic Satanism branch. This person's approach was very different than Ford's was, and yet he listed Ford as one of the 3 men who 'had it right', referring to Anti-Cosmic Satanism, it was really quite puzzling.

To some degree, conformity will be expected in an organization. If your aims differ from the aims of that organization, then they would naturally not want you in it. That does serve a practical purpose, if it's left at that. However, the rejecting of unconventional methods towards reaching that goal is when it becomes counterproductive. Many times, a unique approach is exactly what separates the good from the great.





Edited by 334forwardspin (08/02/13 04:22 AM)

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#78951 - 08/02/13 04:43 AM Re: Mentoring [Re: 334forwardspin]
SIN3 Offline
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Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 6875
Loc: Virginia
 Quote:
This person's approach was very different than Ford's was, and yet he listed Ford as one of the 3 men who 'had it right', referring to Anti-Cosmic Satanism, it was really quite puzzling.


Do you remember his name? I interviewed one of Ford's proteges he had a different approach than Ford did, and a healthy balance of arrogance about him but I don't think he'd written anything at the time. He is a member of Ford's Order of Phosphorus.

I don't know that some of these working groups demand compliance per se, it's more or less a code of behavior that holds the group/organization together, otherwise the thing just breaks a part.

This is why you see some organizations form and then have some kind of inner conflict and fall a part vs. those that have longevity.

Did you ever come across the League of Independent Satanists? They sure didn't last long. Last I heard, there's a loose cabal in Germany which is just a couple of guys left over from the original horde. It sort of reminds me of the premise of Vampires Nesting. Once they've been trapped together in closed-off group for too long, they fight among themselves and start eating each other.

It seems to be an organic sort of thing with the 'followers', not much different than church congregations.

Take for instance Aquino's ToS, the lower Echelon is expected to carry themselves a certain way to reach a level of skill to Mentor. Once they achieve that 'teacher' level, it's taken up a notch. One of the things I noticed was that the Sponsor of each Initiate behaved much like a College Professor would to acclimate a new student. Compare that to a group of Adept Setians and it's quite different.
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#78952 - 08/02/13 07:20 AM Re: Mentoring [Re: SIN3]
334forwardspin Offline
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Registered: 03/04/13
Posts: 509
Loc: Las Vegas,NV United States
I never knew they're name, I just found the essay awhile back when I was first researching Satanism a little more than five years ago. Here is a link to the essay:

http://occultcorpus.com/forums/index.php?/topic/15075-my-essay-on-anti-cosmic-satanism/

The general approach differing from Ford's wasn't as puzzling as a particular theological difference. The writer of this clearly is into the Anti-Cosmic branch as evident by the title, and the association of Lucifer and Satan is very much present in that branch. Ford from what I know, does not associate the two which is why it surprises me that he listed Ford as one of the men who 'has it right', since this guy is very strong on 'my way is the right way'. This person either is not very well versed on their own faith, or they aren't very well versed on Ford it seems.

I have never heard of the League of Independent Satanists, but that's not surprising if they were short lived. Along with the less successful known ones, there are many very small groups that go completely unknown, because they have no internet presence at all. They just operate with their few members, doing rituals together and things of the like.

To a degree, groups working to seek a goal do demand compliance, not because they think everyone in the world should think just like them, but because like mindedness is essential to their productivity. It would only be to the degree of a common goal, so everyone contributes. Say, I were to bring together a football training group geared towards improving specific skills. If someone isn't interested in improving those skills, and only other ones, I wouldn't want them there. They'd really just be wasting everyone in the group's time, and really their own. If the were offering less used, but effective training methods to help us improve in our goal though, I'd like having them in the group.

When it passes the point of just worrying about effectiveness, and is just about a plain refusal to embrace a less traveled path or less used tactics, it is just counter productive and as you said contradictory to the whole idea of the LHP.

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#78954 - 08/02/13 07:55 AM Re: Mentoring [Re: 334forwardspin]
SIN3 Offline
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Registered: 05/14/13
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Sounds very 'Temple of the Black Light' to me, at least from what I've read so far. Here's a Wiki for a quick overview.

There's a topic on the forum: Here

It's pretty eclectic, so he most likely admires that quality about Ford. That's my take, anyway.


 Quote:
it is just counter productive and as you said contradictory to the whole idea of the LHP.


I think a lot of Internet-based stuff is just kicking your ideas around with people that are knowledgeable. Otherwise, you'd have to stop and explain even the most basic of principals. Some of these 'networks' (for the lack of a better term), start something up that gives the appearance of a 'real world' existence but the reality is often the furthest thing from it.

Not to say there aren't a hand-full of 'covens' but they appear to be more paganish to me than Satanic. Brotherhood of Satan is a fairly decent representative of that type. The head 'Priest' or whatever title they go by then act as Mentor to the group.
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#78957 - 08/02/13 09:10 AM Re: Mentoring [Re: SIN3]
334forwardspin Offline
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Registered: 03/04/13
Posts: 509
Loc: Las Vegas,NV United States
It definitely is, I know the TOTBL very well. Remember how I said I used to be into the 'this is true Satanism' thing? They were the ones I thought were that, and who got me into Satanism.

They actually have a lot of ideas I like. Once you look past the 'we are the truth' and 'more evil than thou' rhetoric. I'm into some of their theology as well. The problem though, is that the rhetoric contradicts the parts of the ideology that are sound, especially the free thinking part. If someone is new to the path, the key to learning from what they have to offer is to take them with a grain of salt, and look at the value of what they preach while ignoring the rhetoric. People often make the mistake of just judging a person's credibility in determining whether or not to swallow what they say whole or completely discredit it, instead of just picking and choosing what they like from what they say.

That's pretty much what any internet discussion is, just discussing ideas with like minded people, or those who you think are well versed. If people didn't want that, this forum would likely not even exist. Essentially, you have the well-versed who just want to bounce ideas off each other, and those who are new(to whatever it is)are looking to learn from willing teachers.

I know of the Brotherhood of Satan, they're based in Georgia I think. They portray themselves as an ancient coven that pre-dates Christianity. I'd love to see proof of that, as it would be significant for the history of Satanism. Though I'd like to believe it since I'm interested in older dark religion, I am skeptical. Obviously somewhere along the line their coven would have migrated over here from Europe, if this is the case, I suppose there could be many reasons for that. How any group could survive for so long in secret is probably the biggest question mark, because new members would have a difficult time finding the coven to keep it going.

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#78960 - 08/02/13 05:28 PM Re: Mentoring [Re: 334forwardspin]
SIN3 Offline
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Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 6875
Loc: Virginia
Yes, I remember and it all comes together now ;\)

There's tons of Rhetoric out there, hell I even employ it for tone in some of my own writing. We tend to pluck out what we find useful and discard the rest. I'm sure some of my stuff is discarded and flushed. Plus, it tends to separate the wheat from the chaff so to speak.

Even the knowledgeable can learn from someone new, there's bound to be a question or comment that forces you to reflect on a particular idea to see if it holds water or think of something you had not previously.

You should be skeptical, a lot of that info is spread to attract members (and membership dues). It's all a mind-trap.


There's so many bullshit claims out there, you'd be hard-pressed to find any 'Ancient' lineage to anything remotely 'Satanic' by today's standard. At best you find some references to the D-Theurgistes Optimates (See: La' Bas (more Lucifer-based)) and maybe even the Gnostic sect of Ophites that some consider 'Serpent Worshipers' (Knowledge). Beyond that, it's fair game to make a claim. To lend evidence to it is another matter.

As I stated earlier, there were probably people that favored the Devil (post-Abrahamic) but writing it down and making a formal religion out of it is a hope at best. Folk-religion is typically oral and familial vs. something Orthodox. When it means your life is at risk, a best kept secret.

What is thrown in the 'pagan' bucket is often cults that were dedicated to particular 'dark' gods. The Latin term is used as a catch-all for anything prior to Judaism, Christianity and Islam or religions practiced outside the capital city of Rome. People argue the etymology and use by Anthropologists to categorize religion on a daily basis. Much like labels such as Animism and Shamanism.

Modern groups just construct 'religion' out of cultural contexts, archaeological finds, and a contemporary understanding. If you've noticed the trend of using Ancient Sumer as a basis, it's pretty much because it's the oldest known writing system known to modern man. To this day, the tablets are studied and new translations are made all the time. The collection essentially becomes a codex for making religions. It's by no coincidence that 'Satanism' would follow this trend. Poetic sonnets are turned into 'Religion' and appropriated for whatever helps a person sleep at night. Gods, Aliens, Cosmic Consciousness, Inter-dimensional beings, etc., the only limits are the imagination really; the claim to 'Ancient Roots' somehow gives a new-system more credibility. It was all conceptualized at some point by some one, for some reason. A religion made today is no less valid than one made thousands of years ago. It's as if people feeling around Lemarchand's box, hoping to crack the code.
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#78999 - 08/04/13 03:55 AM Re: Mentoring [Re: SIN3]
334forwardspin Offline
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Oh absolutely, they can. Sometimes a person who is new may have happened to learn a specific bit of information that a more knowledgeable person missed along the way. Maybe they just didn't pay attention to that area, or whatever other reason. Perhaps they teach you a more effective way to go about things.

With any ideology, a degree of skepticism is required just for the sake of deciding for yourself if you agree with it. With the TOTBL though, it is particularly important to not discard everything they wrote right away just because of their exterior. When you look at them initially, they look like complete whack jobs(and they probably are, somewhat). They use hallucinogenic drugs in their rituals, and believe the results of these rituals to be verification of their beliefs. That, and the 'cosmos hating' stigma doesn't help them.

With how they are, they bring on any stereotyping done about them, but from what I know of them the actual members don't mind. Rejection of their good ideas would only hurt the individual who does so. I never go too much on first impressions, they're a good example of why. On a side note though, it is a complete joke when their followers(not members) often complain about 'misconceptions' people have about them. They'll find a big issue with something a person says about the TOTBL, that is actually a very reasonable conclusion to take based on their writings.

Ancient lineage claims are hard to believe, for the reasons you listed. There were probably Satanists in medieval times, and probably at times there were smaller groups of 5 or 6 members who got together and did rituals or other things. However, as you said it would have to have remained secretive. Other Satanists who would have been interested in it would have had to be secretive as well, not exactly easy to bring in members to carry on the coven.

I do notice the trend of eluding to Sumeria, in the RHP and LHP. Theology is usually a collection of old ideas blended together, with new interpretations. The TOTBL is big on the old Sumerian gods, Tiamat, Absu, Kingu etc., and Marduk creating man to be his slaves. They of course, worship the dark gods and despise Marduk. I don't believe in any 'creation' god, only dark ones, but their ideas do represent a key concept, that if you don't choose your own life plan, it's not worth living. Basically, it's why they don't buy into the 'carry out God's plan' type of shit.

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#79001 - 08/04/13 06:42 AM Re: Mentoring [Re: 334forwardspin]
SIN3 Offline
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Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 6875
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 Quote:
They of course, worship the dark gods and despise Marduk. I don't believe in any 'creation' god, only dark ones, but their ideas do represent a key concept, that if you don't choose your own life plan, it's not worth living. Basically, it's why they don't buy into the 'carry out God's plan' type of shit.


This represents a red thread. If you're familiar with Ford's writings, he conceptualizes it as Deific-Masks because that's all they are really. What ever mask you choose, it should be with your own life plan in mind, or else get lost in character.
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#79840 - 08/27/13 05:49 AM Re: Mentoring [Re: SIN3]
HisDivineShadow Offline
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Registered: 06/23/13
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When I mentor, I not only explain the greatness of self worship, but also that to increase power and maximize potential, the control and domination of others must occur. My "students" then go out and bend the wills of others to their own, and since they are already influenced by my own will, by proxy, I have a hold on the people they influence as well. That's a very simplified way of putting it, but I think it illustrates the point well enough. Perhaps it's not mentoring in the way that many others see, but it's a way for me to achieve my maximum potential, while helping others achieve more of theirs. Of course, this comes at the expense of the weak at the bottom of the hierarchy...but fuck them lol.
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#79897 - 08/27/13 07:44 PM Re: Mentoring [Re: HisDivineShadow]
334forwardspin Offline
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Registered: 03/04/13
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I never understood the need for control/domination of others, to many it seems to be significant for the sake of it and nothing else. For me, it's all about the self what others do doesn't matter. Enhancing your own skill, ability, knowledge and etc. is centered around you, the action you take and taking control of your own life, not the lives of others.

I always like to be self-reliant, and take matters into my own hands when it comes to attaining the things most important to me, as much as I can. Others only become relevant if help from them is necessary to help better myself, in whatever way they may help. When that is the case, you may need to influence them in some way, but a simple selling of your points is a better way to go to get them on board. You'll get a lot more out of a willing participant who will put effort into what you need, rather than someone who you have to control/manipulate.

Plus, control/manipulation is really in the hands of others rather than you, which is most evident in learning not to be the victim of this yourself. In taking control of your own life, and looking to understand and verify things for yourself, even those who are smarter will not be very successful at manipulating you in any way that you find important.

I find that a lot of people talk big game about control/manipulation of others, but find it not so easy when it comes to actually doing it. A personal perception of sheeps and wolves isn't necessarily reality, plus even sheep will only listen to certain people anyhow.

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#89916 - 06/24/14 01:31 PM Re: Mentoring [Re: 334forwardspin]
SIN3 Offline
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Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 6875
Loc: Virginia
 Quote:
I never understood the need for control/domination of others, to many it seems to be significant for the sake of it and nothing else. For me, it's all about the self what others do doesn't matter. Enhancing your own skill, ability, knowledge and etc. is centered around you, the action you take and taking control of your own life, not the lives of others.


Think of it in terms of profitability. Advertising industries capitalize on manipulation of the masses. It herds them to a product or service, even if that good is sub-par and doesn't live up to its advertising campaign.

 Quote:
Plus, control/manipulation is really in the hands of others rather than you, which is most evident in learning not to be the victim of this yourself. In taking control of your own life, and looking to understand and verify things for yourself, even those who are smarter will not be very successful at manipulating you in any way that you find important.


Do you take into account environmental factors? You may think you are acting deliberately and within the frame of your own power drive but at closer examination you may find you've just been manipulated to take the action desired by another.

 Quote:
I find that a lot of people talk big game about control/manipulation of others, but find it not so easy when it comes to actually doing it. A personal perception of sheeps and wolves isn't necessarily reality, plus even sheep will only listen to certain people anyhow.


What's that old adage, the path to hell is paved with good intentions? I see people get taking for a joy ride all the time by others. A manipulation by the mere use of a communication tool such as this. All under the guise of being helpful or to make 'friends'.

Say, I want to get you to post feverishly out of anger. I might post something to get your motor running. Just for kicks.

How to win friends and influence people is always among the recommended reading list for 'Satanists'. Eh?

As previously noted, even books influence and manipulate.
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#89922 - 06/24/14 03:52 PM Re: Mentoring [Re: SIN3]
LoneWolf78 Offline
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Registered: 05/21/14
Posts: 419
These are all very good points SIN3. I also appreciate your correct use of the word manipulation, which is what Lavey called Lesser Magic (though I have ran into some Satanists who abhor the word in this context ).

Thank you for teaching me something new or reminding me of something that I should be more mindful of though. I admit that I am still a bit naive when it comes to internet communications. Sometimes the emoticons give good hints, but as someone who generally communicates in a direct way, I sometimes am guilty of thinking that everyone does .

As you point out, on the net sometimes it is easy to manipulate someone by the things that you post (especially if no hints are given).

It reminds me of the phrase I'm going to kill you.

A friend plays a joke on you, laughing hysterically when you discover that you have been pranked, you say, 'Oh, man, I'm gonna kill you.' Is quite different than being pissed off and saying, 'You either stop what your doing now, or I will kill you.'

The internet takes the voice tone completely away...and without subtle hints it is sometimes hard to tell.

Thanks for your comment.

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#89924 - 06/24/14 04:12 PM Re: Mentoring [Re: LoneWolf78]
SIN3 Offline
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Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 6875
Loc: Virginia
 Quote:
The internet takes the voice tone completely away...and without subtle hints it is sometimes hard to tell.


It does to a certain degree, which is why the benefits of getting familiar with the 'usual suspects' are an advantage, not a set back. Although, some would say: Run for your life! It's the bullies and the meanies!

For example, if you wanted to get to know me, I use this axiomatic statement in my Book of SIN. "To know me, is to know my expressions".

I'm pretty direct myself, and boy do I say FUCK a lot. To some, this indicates 'anger' or 'frustration' or whatever the hell they imagine. It's not like I don't provide ample content to pick up on my inflections in the written form. Some would argue that it's my responsibility to communicate 'mood' as well as ideas. Then what? Cater to every person that has a disdain for 'vulgarity' or text speak, or whatever they are picking up in the written text? Nah... Not my style.

Still, people will pick up bits of knowledge but my effort is for naught if I'm going against a metric ton of psychological baggage and memory recall, it's like those walk-ins the meta-jargon goes on about. I'm essentially wearing the skinsuit of the archetype that exists in the minds of strangers.

Maybe I remind you of your cunt of a mother, or maybe I use your own words against you. Besides, people tend to take all this 'content' way too seriously and lack a funny bone.

Me? Direct, smart ass, sarcastic and laughing all the time.

Weeeee!
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#89928 - 06/24/14 04:32 PM Re: Mentoring [Re: SIN3]
LoneWolf78 Offline
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Registered: 05/21/14
Posts: 419
Run for your life, the meanies and bullies with cyber lashings to boot oh my! Lol.

You are correct, that you can not pander to everyone and there is a lot to be said for those who are not afraid to be themselves in my book... probably because I am also that way. I have often said that my honesty has got me in more trouble than my dishonesty ever could. Then again one of my classic arguments was I will accept anyone's right to be offended by anything that I say, wear or do, as long as I reserve the right to be offended by the fact that they are offended. In which case, I expect that my being offended will have as much protection as theres.
That left the boss speechless...and I kept my job lol.

Speaking for myself, your attitude on here reminds me of an old friend. She has the same kind of attitude What can I say, I tend to dig spirited chicks.

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#89940 - 06/24/14 05:24 PM Re: Mentoring [Re: SIN3]
Fnord Offline
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Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 2085
Loc: Texas
While I'm sure the blossoming love connection between the two of you is fascinating to many it has naught to do with 'mentoring'.

I'm not foolish enough to think that conversations don't grow organically, but can we try to keep things a bit more focused in the public eye?

Thank you!

I deleted a bunch of the love fest bullshit. Morgan


Edited by Morgan (07/04/14 03:09 PM)
Edit Reason: added info
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#89949 - 06/24/14 06:16 PM Re: Mentoring [Re: Fnord]
SIN3 Offline
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Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 6875
Loc: Virginia
Ha, nice. Well, you know what they say... Death Becomes Her...

Another element that strikes me as relevant to mentoring, is setting a standard. In the case of a forum, it tends to get users to up their game or at least learn from follies. Until they get banned or butthurt that is \:\)
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