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#1393 - 11/03/07 05:56 PM Re: any interest in a Satanic Grotto? [Re: MCSA TEK]
Euronymous Offline
stranger


Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 46
Loc: san diego, ca
You draw upon some very good points MCSA TEK. Satanism does tend to draw the usual retards and crazies, along with every other type of black sheep. Insofar as grottos, I like the method the CoS uses to select its members. There applications are designed to weed out the non-Satanists. It would be a good idea for Venger to check out the application process of the CoS, if he or she is serious about starting a grotto.

Edited by Euronymous (11/03/07 05:57 PM)
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" And in the secret caves of my wisdom, it is known that there is no God but Me. "

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#1420 - 11/04/07 11:55 AM Re: any interest in a Satanic Grotto? [Re: Euronymous]
Samuel Hain Offline
pledge


Registered: 10/06/07
Posts: 62
Loc: arkansas
Its not just Satanism.I have worked with some unorthodox political movements and non-conformists are often dysfunctional and have to be weeded out. The true nonconformists who has actually thought out his political/social,or religious philosophy, usually by extensive reading and research is rare. Most nonconformists are that way to fit in with fellow friends or get a thrill by standing out and alienating others.The stupidest thing in the world is stores like Hot Topic thats sale conformist goth clothes to nonconformists goths.True rebellion is a state of mind, not how one dresses or dyes his hair.
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#1430 - 11/04/07 02:03 PM Re: any interest in a Satanic Grotto? [Re: 139381512]
SSSnake Offline
pledge


Registered: 11/04/07
Posts: 79
Loc: PA. U.S.A.
christains in there psodo ways are as trained mice ruuning for the chesse they will never get.
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"Est et fideli tuta silentio merces:"—"for faithful silence, also, there is a sure reward."

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#1524 - 11/07/07 11:25 AM Re: any interest in a Satanic Grotto? [Re: Venger Satanis]
Asmedious Moderator Offline
Moderator
senior member


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 1737
Loc: New York
Personally, I do like the idea of a Grotto, on some level, because although we may be highly individualistic and independent, we are on some level social creatures due to the mere fact that all f us are human, and have a desire to socialize on some level. If this was not the case, then this whole forum would be totally empty, and without members.

Certainly, there would be challenges in establishing a grotto, many of which have been mentioned.

One of the biggest challenges, would be membership criteria. I tend to like the way the Masons have their system set up. Of course, since I am not a Mason, my knowledge of them, is limited to what I have read, and seen in documentaries about them.

New members on the first level, are only given very basic information. This is a fairly good way, to “weed out” the undesirables. With the advancement in ranks taking years, it also weeds out those individuals, who are still “searching” for their own belief systems, and will keep those out of the inner circle, who cannot make a commitment to said organization. Eventually, they will move on to the next “cool” group.

Selecting people to fill the leadership ranks, would also be very challenging, since “Satanists” by nature are not followers.
The head of the organization, would have to be someone, or a group, who have proved themselves to be highly intelligent, and successful in their personal life, and became that way using Satanic principles. A person, or persons, who would be able to earn the respect of a group of highly individualistic personalities.
So far the closest anyone has come, in my opinion, was Anton LaVey. He had the charisma, and the intelligence to carry this leadership role to some extent, but perhaps he failed in the long run, possibly do to his failure to achieve enough real and tangible success in his personal life.

When there is a group of people, someone does have to be respected enough, to be able to make final decisions for the group, and to establish certain codes of conduct, which would be beneficial to the group as a whole. Otherwise, everyone would want to run off into a different direction, and the grotto would sooner or later fall apart, as is usually the case.

Another big question, and perhaps this is the hardest one to answer, is what would the purpose of such a group be? Would it be merely a bunch of people getting together occasionally, to shoot the breeze, and discuss how Elite they are, and maybe prance around in Satanic garb performing rituals? Or would it be possible for like minded Satanists to get together in a localized geographic area, and at times concede some of their “individuality,” to enable the “group,” to make a difference in local politics and other areas which would be beneficial to a wide range of people who value personal freedom, there by giving credibility to the organization, as a potent and powerful one.

Although there might be some threat from the outside, as earlier mentioned, I don’t believe that such a threat would be as grave as some might believe.
If the purpose for the grotto was only so that members could share ideas, and support each other in some way and perhaps assist initiates in their personal growth, then likely, the grotto would be quite limited in size, and there wouldn’t have to be any public knowledge of the organizations existence. If a few curious individuals started asking questions about the organization, the existence of it could be simply denied, or misdirection might be used, and the whole thing could be played off as a group of
essentric, but quite harmless people getting together, who enjoy having a halloween party now and then.

If the organization decided to be more public and open, then to some degree, the local community would have to be put at ease, regarding the groups existence. Members would have to be able to represent themselves, and there by the grotto, in a positive light, showing that they are not a threat to the outside world. However, if anyone from the outside did cause physical harm to members or their property, then the grotto would have to be strong enough to make an example of them, but only through legal means, for obvious reasons. Perhaps, insisting that the attack be treated as a “hate crime.”

Some might have a hard time with this, because they feel that the outside world can go fuck off, if they don’t like the grotto.

However, the reality is, like it or not, that the outside world will never fuck off, and the harder the wolf push against the grain, the more likely the sheep will be to stampede. And even a pack of strong wolves, cannot defend themselves against a large stampeding herd.

Just my thoughts on the subject.
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"The first order of government is the protection of its citizens right to be left alone."

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#1808 - 11/12/07 02:17 PM Re: any interest in a Satanic Grotto? [Re: Asmedious]
Poneros Offline
stranger


Registered: 11/11/07
Posts: 5
Loc: Ohio
I come down on both sides of it.

Where I grew up, there was a grotto of sorts, and it happened to be partially run by a schoolmate's parents. He and I became friends and I hung out with him sometimes on the weekends or after school. His house was "normal" and his parents were just like any other parents from outward appearances.

After a period of time--a few years--they knew me very well and knew that I was a child of non-practicing christians and very skeptical in my views of organized religion. Eventually I was invited to participate in their rites/rituals.

Looking back, I'd say they were mostly LaVeyan in their practices, but TSB was only one piece of a lot of "required reading" for being a part.

Sorry for all the background; here's my point. It was indeed nice to have a collection of like-minded people. They were an extremely secretive group. At no time were any of my schoolmate's other friends ever asked to be a part, and the other adults who eventually came into the "grotto" were very carefully watched, screened, checked and rechecked before being invited. In that way it was something that was just ours, and good to have others with whom to share ideas.

The flipside of the argument is that as a lifelong skeptic of anything organized (and not more or less born into it as my friend was), it struck me as odd too. When I moved away from that area, it wasn't something I sought out again. It seemed that system was about as perfect as it can get, and all the pitfalls mentioned in this thread keep me from seeking out anything similar where I live now.

And yes, I recognize that after years of lurking on the old version of the site, I chose to make my first post here about the pros and cons of joining a group of like-minded people. Still, the Interweb is a far cry from the concept of a grotto, and there are benefits and detriments with each.

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#1836 - 11/13/07 03:29 AM Re: any interest in a Satanic Grotto? [Re: Venger Satanis]
Meq Offline
Banned
active member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 861
The trouble with organised groups is that they tend to (in my experience) degenerate into an orthodoxy, becoming rigid and intolerant of dissenting views.
I can forsee a problem with a Satanic grotto - its members' interpretation of Magic.

Let's suppose that such a grotto wishes to practice magical rituals. Most likely, some members will have a purely metaphorical view of magic as a form of psychodrama.

Others will insist that magic produces real effects by supernatural means.

Members in the latter camp are likely to have a problem with those in the former when it comes down to the nitty-gritty of actually performing a ritual. They may see the presence of 'unbelievers' (in magic as a real force) as a threat to a successful outcome.

Meanwhile, the sceptics in magic are likely to be repelled by what they perceive as the dogmatism, superstition and bigotry of those in the other camp.

Apart from limiting individual magical workings to groups of Satanists who can agree on the interpretation and goals of each working, this seems to be a problem for organised groups - especially for such a fiercely individualistic philosophy as Satanism.

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#1839 - 11/13/07 07:03 AM Re: any interest in a Satanic Grotto? [Re: Meq]
Nemesis Offline
senior member


Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
The only "grotto" I could envision as being successful with Satanists is meeting up on the weekends at the local bar, winehouse or nice restaurant for drinks, dinner, and conversation. I know that would be my preference, anyway.

I honestly can't see anything "organized" working, especially as Paula described above, when it comes to working magic and personal philosophy.

Nothing but a massive headache.

I think we have the perfect "grotto" in the 600 Club as it is...why change that? Some members have been able to meet up with one another and have a good time, while most of the others are stuck in isolation (like myself). It's a place to congregate (in a way), yet provides the breathing room necessary for its individualistic members.
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#1860 - 11/13/07 06:20 PM Re: any interest in a Satanic Grotto? [Re: Nemesis]
Poneros Offline
stranger


Registered: 11/11/07
Posts: 5
Loc: Ohio
I have to agree, which is undoubtedly why I finally registered here.

Both concepts--Internet Forum and actual group of humans--have their benefits and drawbacks. Like Paula and Nemesis say, problems arise in interpretations of ritual and dogma in the grotto scenario. And as earlier posters in this thread mentioned, if things go bad, they can go REALLY bad.

On an Internet Forum, if things go wrong, either the problem folks leave (or are banned) or you leave. Problem solved. Much less drama, and more importantly, almost no chance for dragging something relatively secrative and personal into the light of day.

As with all else on the Internet, sometimes one is left missing the vibe that only being in the same room with someone can deliver. Yet with the possible problems inherent in the grotto concept, for me the 'Net remains the better option.

 Originally Posted By: Nemesis
The only "grotto" I could envision as being successful with Satanists is meeting up on the weekends at the local bar, winehouse or nice restaurant for drinks, dinner, and conversation. I know that would be my preference, anyway...


That would be ideal in my current situation. The "grotto" i was in in my youth was successful (i.e., not plagued by the issues discussed here), but as I said, a pretty rare thing I've come to find out.

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#2742 - 12/13/07 04:12 PM Re: any interest in a Satanic Grotto? [Re: SSSnake]
Euronymous Offline
stranger


Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 46
Loc: san diego, ca
Lol...I love that analogy. I couldn't be more precise about that. By the way it is "psuedo". However, what do you think about the topic at hand? I liked your comment but how does that relate to Grottos?
_________________________
" And in the secret caves of my wisdom, it is known that there is no God but Me. "

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#2805 - 12/18/07 11:34 AM Re: any interest in a Satanic Grotto? [Re: 139381512]
DeathIsWicked Offline
stranger


Registered: 12/12/07
Posts: 14
Loc: Peyton, Colorado
I'll have to look into Grotto. I never really gave it any thought.
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The Devil's Advocate.
Joy of Satan Minitries.

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#3446 - 01/14/08 11:03 AM Re: any interest in a Satanic Grotto? [Re: Gravity]
Satanic Zealot Offline
stranger


Registered: 01/14/08
Posts: 17
Loc: St. Albert, Alberta, Canada
 Originally Posted By: Gravity
 Quote:
Grotto's seem like a good idea at first glance, However the reality of it is much worse. The problem with the grotto system is that if you misjudge and choose members poorly and one of them does something retarded, the entire group will find itself in prison or worse.


What?! Can you explain further please?

Read beyond that and you will find your explanation
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"Does the dreadful form of personified evil only prompt you to smile?"

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#3463 - 01/14/08 02:15 PM Re: any interest in a Satanic Grotto? [Re: Asmedious]
Satansfarm Offline
member


Registered: 01/12/08
Posts: 352
Loc: america
"What good is strength if it only serves other's needs and expectations?"

This is a loose quote from Anton LaVey's SATAN SPEAKS.

When it comes to actually performing rituals, getting several people to merge as a magical force could be quite challenging.

I have tried this before, with rather dim results.
It really depends on who you are working with, I suppose.
I still can't help that the combination of forces of like minded people could prove to be awesome, maybe even more effective than a lone magician.

I studied political science in college. I learned that the larger the group becomes, the more individual freedoms are given up.
If the cause is just, then the ends justify the means, perhaps.
On the other hand, sometimes if ya wanna do something right, ya gadda do it yer seff.....(mispellings are intentional)

And yet another quote from a nice movie called A BEAUTIFUL MIND

"Some say what's best is for the individual. Others say, what's best is for the group. What is truly best is for the individual AND the group".

I love movies and comic books. I get my most important data from them. Oh yeah, drunks too.

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#3628 - 01/21/08 05:30 PM Re: any interest in a Satanic Grotto? [Re: Satansfarm]
Satansfarm Offline
member


Registered: 01/12/08
Posts: 352
Loc: america
against my better judgement I have formed with several others a local grotto. We call ourselves NORTH BEACH GROTTO SF
Well , people kept coming to me for some spiritual guidance
I suppose I am narcissic enough to comply
there is something for the feeling of community that
is accosiated with groups
we had our first group ritual last night
it was basiclly a ritual toasting to salute Anton LaVey
and consolidate our group thing
WE ARE LOOKING FOR A FEW GOOD WITCHES
OR BAD WITCHES, JUST AS GOOD

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#3681 - 01/24/08 05:29 PM Re: any interest in a Satanic Grotto? [Re: Satansfarm]
Satansfarm Offline
member


Registered: 01/12/08
Posts: 352
Loc: america
what the heck was i thinkin?
faaaaaahhhgeddabowdid

no, really...this is a waste of time

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#3686 - 01/24/08 09:10 PM Re: any interest in a Satanic Grotto? [Re: Satansfarm]
ta2zz Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 1552
Loc: Connecticut
What has happened in 3 days to make you do a 360? I am just interested in hearing your experience if you would share...

Peace

~T~
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We are the music makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams. ~Arthur William Edgar O'Shaughnessy

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