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#83722 - 12/30/13 10:11 AM Re: Friends close Haters closer [Re: Le Deluge]
SIN3 Offline
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You and your logic and shit. Cut it out LD, people might begin to think that we're serious or something. I wonder which law would validate me? Is it like getting your parking ticket punched?
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#83723 - 12/30/13 10:16 AM Re: Friends close Haters closer [Re: SIN3]
Le Deluge Offline
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Registered: 08/05/12
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Oh hell yeah. If you got your parking validated at the infernal parking garage, you win the internet and Satanism. We all can go home now! LOL.
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#83727 - 12/30/13 11:30 AM Re: Friends close Haters closer [Re: Dan_Dread]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3370
 Originally Posted By: Dan Dread
Don't you know the LHP is about worldly success? Shit look at all those Aghori monks living in wallstreet penthouses.
The Aghori are part of an entire different culture where spirituality and religion are deeply ingrained within society. It's not really comparable with the one we're living in.

I can see "the edgy" side the hubris might find so appealing to consider it LHP (by comparing it to the own culture). In reality, it's more RHP-oriented.

Got other nonsense which needs to be shot down?


Edited by Dimitri (12/30/13 11:31 AM)
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#83728 - 12/30/13 12:51 PM Re: Friends close Haters closer [Re: Dimitri]
SIN3 Offline
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Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 7190
Loc: Virginia
 Quote:
"Satanism is not a white light religion; it is a religion of the flesh, the mundane, the carnal - all of which are ruled by Satan, the personification of the Left Hand Path" - Anton LaVey


If say, we just use this quote for shits and giggles... The carnality of man isn't necessarily reduced to successes within society to see if man measures up. Often times, it's the failures that allow you to forge a relationship with Satan.

This dichotomy was apprehended from Eastern Tantra, so it's a fair bit more than causal speech to force your hand. It's the movements themselves that determine where the chips fall.

Satan, is just one manifestation of the LHP. The Aghori would be an example of the LHP within their own culture. Juxtapose their methods with your own and within your own culture. Is Science infallible? Does it not require belief and leaps of Faith?


 Quote:
I can see "the edgy" side the hubris might find so appealing to consider it LHP (by comparing it to the own culture). In reality, it's more RHP-oriented.


To reduce the Aghori to RHP (I'm guessing because of the Spiritual leanings), isn't quite accurate. It's far more complex than that.
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#83729 - 12/30/13 02:15 PM Re: Friends close Haters closer [Re: SIN3]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 4011
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 Originally Posted By: Dimitri

I can see "the edgy" side the hubris might find so appealing to consider it LHP (by comparing it to the own culture). In reality, it's more RHP-oriented.

Got other nonsense which needs to be shot down?


Wow did you just type that? What exactly do you think 'left hand path' means? Hint - it has nothing to do with whether someone believes in gods or not.
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#83733 - 12/30/13 03:04 PM Re: Friends close Haters closer [Re: Dan_Dread]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
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 Originally Posted By: Danniboy
Wow did you just type that? What exactly do you think 'left hand path' means? Hint - it has nothing to do with whether someone believes in gods or not.

Both LHP and RHP are mere theoretical constructs used in Western esoterism. I've already stated the quite vital 'when comparing to the own culture'. Yes, you might say from our point of view their practices deal with breaking the status quo, adhering into forms of personal anarchism and an embracement of the carnal nature (all typically associated with LHP).

The reason I say they're more RHP-oriented deals with the motivation for their practice. A more focused glance reveals they hold typical RHP-beliefs such as a divide of the concepts mind, body and spirit (although interrelated). This made obvious as the practice involves breaking the 8 bonds in order to become "Sadashiva". This last one indicates a belief in some form of judgement (which in itself is a second typical RHP-descriptor).

I might have been too quick to say they weren't LHP. NHP seems to be more fitting.


Edited by Dimitri (12/30/13 03:06 PM)
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#83738 - 12/31/13 09:34 AM Re: Friends close Haters closer [Re: Dimitri]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Dimi, after all this time I find it a bit surprising that you don't seem to know the roots of this Satanism thing. NHP? Listen, left hand path is a loose phrasology for 'left handed attainment'(vamachara) which basically means 'heterodox/antinomian'

Those 'no hand pathers' of yours INVENTED LHP, and the only reason it made it into 'western occultism' memeology is because it was brought here from the east in the mid 19th century by some halfwitted mystic that didn't quite get it either(Blavatsky)

Roots
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#83739 - 12/31/13 10:42 AM Re: Friends close Haters closer [Re: Dimitri]
SIN3 Offline
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 Quote:
This made obvious as the practice involves breaking the 8 bonds in order to become "Sadashiva". This last one indicates a belief in some form of judgement (which in itself is a second typical RHP-descriptor).


It's quite obvious that you don't understand what's going on there. The Aghori actively release themselves from said bonds, to achieve Lord Shiva, not attain its judgment. LaVey used simple lingo and dumbed it down a fair bit describing it as simply godhood, Master of one's own existence.
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#83740 - 12/31/13 10:55 AM Re: Friends close Haters closer [Re: SIN3]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Exactly. What we might contemporarily call, 'manifesting the sinister' or 'walking in the devils shoes'. It's simply a toolset for internal alchemy, ultimately purposed to destroy duality, not build it.
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#83741 - 12/31/13 11:13 AM Re: Friends close Haters closer [Re: Dan_Dread]
SIN3 Offline
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Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 7190
Loc: Virginia
 Quote:
It's simply a toolset for internal alchemy, ultimately purposed to destroy duality, not build it.


Bingo. Finding linguistic carriers can be problematic at times. I still use Hermetic but then people associate my meaning with following a particular philosophy (such as Dimi conceptualizes it) rather than what the goal of Hermetics actually is. A dissolve of Duality. Words! All these Words!

It's by no coincidence that the ONA memetics encapsulates similar idea sets.
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#83763 - 01/03/14 09:39 AM Re: Friends close Haters closer [Re: Dan_Dread]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3370
I am aware of its roots. The "why" on the comment I made is by reason I differentiate between (Left handed) "attainment" and (Left hand) "path". The first indicating antinomian practice stemming from spiritualism and mysticism while the latter has more to do with recognizing the own carnality and the senselessness of nomian morality and practice.

The reason I coined NHP, if you managed to read up on Aghori, is because of their realization towards non-duality and the influences/practices from both LHP and RHP. It's fairly convenient for the moderate occultist/"magician" to have them put under the Vamachara/LHP-"label" because of the taken stance (antinomian behavior). The whole motivation for this antinomian behavior is to attain "Sadashiva" through the breaking of the 8 nooses (sensual pleasure, anger, greed, obsession, fear, hatred,..) and put the own primordiality on the foreground. And with breaking it is meant a removal instead of a rejoicing (in other words: denial of the own carnality by numbing it down through a variety of antinomian practices). Something which is quite different than traditional LHP.

When it concerns the earlier mentioned "judgement", one of the ideas the Aghori hold is "Shiva is perfect". Which means that everything (as they believe Shiva is the soul of every person) should be perfect. Denying the perfection of anything would mean denying the sacredness of everything as well as the denial of "supreme being" (or Sadashiva). Sounds quite judgemental to me..

Despite Vamachara (or left handed attainment) being coined as synonymous with LHP, both are distinct as one is a means towards an (mostly theistic or RHP-oriented) end while the other deals in plain and simply carnality.

After reading your "Roots"-hyperlink I've only got one comment on a small mistake you made:
 Originally Posted By: ADM
You see, in traditional tantric practice, which is a specific set of esoteric practices falling under
the banner of Hinduism, there are two overarching schools of thought; Vamachara and Dakshinachara. Dakshinachara consists of acceptable Hindu practices such as meditation and asceticism, while Vamachara also includes many things seen as ‘ taboo’ in that culture, such as animal sacrifice,drinking alcohol, sexual practice, and eating meat. In fact, the central practice of
Vamachara, the ritual of the 5 Ms, consists of taboo breaking as a method of ‘opening the mind.’ The practitioners of this tradition, known as nastia(which one etymological hypothesis
places as the root word of ‘nasty’) would be known to smear themselves with grave ash, or build stools from 5 skulls, one generally being human, to overcome their fear of the dead and
death itself.

While in itself the paragraph is sound, it should be noted that Dakshinachara also includes rituals with the 5M's BUT moreover in a symbolical sense and not in a literal sense (as with Vamachara).

Wikipedia might be your friend, Google Scholar is my soulmate.


Edited by Dimitri (01/03/14 09:47 AM)
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#83773 - 01/03/14 08:38 PM Re: Friends close Haters closer [Re: Dimitri]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 4011
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
 Quote:

I am aware of its roots. The "why" on the comment I made is by reason I differentiate between (Left handed) "attainment" and (Left hand) "path". The first indicating antinomian practice stemming from spiritualism and mysticism while the latter has more to do with recognizing the own carnality and the senselessness of nomian morality and practice.

Vamachara translates directly into english as 'left course' or 'left path'. Left handed attainment is the sort of knowledge gained from taking the 'left path'. You seem to have done your research in haste.

 Quote:

The reason I coined NHP, if you managed to read up on Aghori, is because of their realization towards non-duality and the influences/practices from both LHP and RHP. It's fairly convenient for the moderate occultist/"magician" to have them put under the Vamachara/LHP-"label" because of the taken stance (antinomian behavior). The whole motivation for this antinomian behavior is to attain "Sadashiva" through the breaking of the 8 nooses (sensual pleasure, anger, greed, obsession, fear, hatred,..) and put the own primordiality on the foreground. And with breaking it is meant a removal instead of a rejoicing (in other words: denial of the own carnality by numbing it down through a variety of antinomian practices). Something which is quite different than traditional LHP.

The LHP spawned from vedic practice, ie they were the first to notice it and make it a 'thing', but the principle of what it is, why it is and how it works are applicable to any culture or society. Of course there will be differences in the goals of a vedic nastika and a western diabolist,and in how their practice might look because they exist in different cultures. Eating meat is hardly a hair raising taboo for me, for instance.

Still, I am not sure from whence you are drawing these strange distinctions of yours. Aghori aren't really LHP because they participate in hinduism? The same hinduism from which the distinction of LHP/RHP was drawn? Interesting.

 Quote:

When it concerns the earlier mentioned "judgement", one of the ideas the Aghori hold is "Shiva is perfect". Which means that everything (as they believe Shiva is the soul of every person) should be perfect. Denying the perfection of anything would mean denying the sacredness of everything as well as the denial of "supreme being" (or Sadashiva). Sounds quite judgemental to me..

I am no scholar on Hinduism, but I'm pretty sure most of that is off base. Either way it doesn't matter, as you are discussing the what not the how. Cultural specifics.

 Quote:

Despite Vamachara (or left handed attainment) being coined as synonymous with LHP, both are distinct as one is a means towards an (mostly theistic or RHP-oriented) end while the other deals in plain and simply carnality.

That's simply incorrect. Vamachara means 'left path', as noted above. Are you saying it is distinct from itself, or did you mean to type something else?

 Quote:

While in itself the paragraph is sound, it should be noted that Dakshinachara also includes rituals with the 5M's BUT moreover in a symbolical sense and not in a literal sense (as with Vamachara).

That isn't a mistake, nor an omission..it's simply not relevant to the point I was making there. Yes, traditional tantrics emulate the breaking of taboos they did not actually break them in practice.

This is an interesting point though, as in a way the state of Satanism emulates the old hindu model. We have the LaVeyans, or the orthodox sect, preaching obedience to the laws of the land, doing rituals where they 'emulate' a vengeful act or 'simulate' a lustful act, just so they can go back to their orthodox routines. Then you hae the less popular, often vilified(for good reason I suppose) 'other side' of that coin.

 Quote:

Wikipedia might be your friend, Google Scholar is my soulmate.

At least you are honest about just digging into this now. Keep at it man. I remember when D turned me on to this stuff in a serious way a few years back.
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#83774 - 01/03/14 09:22 PM Re: Friends close Haters closer [Re: Dan_Dread]
antikarmatomic Offline
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Registered: 09/22/13
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From my take on what LHP means it all comes back to boring-ass AC and the simplistic tree of life. The pillar of mercy and the pillar of severity; the latter of the two being the left hand path.

It is the path of constriction, suffering, callouses, and… as Reich would say… character armor. The actor, the fraud, the conman you simply cannot help but like. The wily, conniving, snakes in the grass type-status (you know who they are - might be you; could be me)

The have-a-nice-day-masked criminal slipping a knife in your rib cage whispering "ever to me"... and smooches, even... if you're lucky.

The black brother who (viz http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thelema )

“If the aspirant is unprepared, he will cling to the ego instead, becoming a Black Brother. Rather than becoming one with God, the Black Brother considers his ego to be god. According to Crowley, the Black Brother slowly disintegrates, while preying on others for his own self-aggrandisement.”

That is the stage I suspect we are at as “Satanists” (whatever that means)… yet, it is a passing one, after all it is the journey and not the destination. May as well smell the roses, no?

Still, one cannot help but notice - with forums we sorta do require validation - that's just how we do and more to the point of the original OP in some abstract way.

We’ll tarry here for a time – maybe years, perhaps crossing over coming to rest (as I think I may well have) in the city of the pyramids.

That’s my take on it. The left hand path is nothing more than all things internally restrictive - constrictive... and serpentine in that way - “I am I”.

The antithesis of “no man is an island” - yet, therein lies the conundrum, which is that it is impossible to define something (even identity) outside of context. Definition requires, at least, contrast.

An "I" cannot properly exist (much less assert itself) without an "other"

It is simply a means to an end uncertain.

Are you you? Or are you, not only a part of, but a facet of all things knowable?

From whence comes volition / free-will? The angle from which you tackle that determines the course.

Either way; all roads lead to (burning) Rome… grab your fiddle \:\)


Edited by antikarmatomic (01/03/14 09:57 PM)
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#83783 - 01/04/14 03:28 AM Re: Friends close Haters closer [Re: Dan_Dread]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3370
 Originally Posted By: DD
Vamachara translates directly into english as 'left course' or 'left path'. Left handed attainment is the sort of knowledge gained from taking the 'left path'. You seem to have done your research in haste.

It actually translates to "Left hand attainment". However, the correct meaning depends on how it is written in Sanskrit.
Vamachara has 2 possible roots:
- Vāmācāra = left hand attainment
- Vāmamārga = left path
At this point its better to use the original forms and not the bastardized English as part of the information will be lost.

Not so much hasty research but moreover trying to remember it by heart.

 Quote:
The LHP spawned from vedic practice, ie they were the first to notice it and make it a 'thing', but the principle of what it is, why it is and how it works are applicable to any culture or society. Of course there will be differences in the goals of a vedic nastika and a western diabolist,and in how their practice might look because they exist in different cultures. Eating meat is hardly a hair raising taboo for me, for instance.

You won't see me disagreeing here. However there's a reason I'm stressing out the difference between "LHP" and "Left-handed attainment". The first indicating antinomian practice by (natural) knowledge of non-duality (plain and simple carnality) while the second sees it as a means towards a higher end.

It's not that they saw, it's moreover a radical extension of hindu belief. A bit like Amish versus your everyday Christians.

 Quote:
I am no scholar on Hinduism, but I'm pretty sure most of that is off base. Either way it doesn't matter, as you are discussing the what not the how. Cultural specifics.

This indicates a "pick-and-choose" behaviour. The "what" always precedes the "how". The "practice" is but mere method towards an end (hence attainment). LHP, in my book, has no end. Hence the distinction.
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#83800 - 01/04/14 12:14 PM Re: Friends close Haters closer [Re: Dimitri]
SIN3 Offline
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In Tantric rituals, the female is seated to the Left (how), in preparation of the union (what), a dissolve of duality in experience.

It's not necessarily an end, the roles of Shatki & Shiva are cyclic and continual. Otherwise, practitioners would starve themselves to death of all physical nourishment.

During the ritual there is the Spiritual aspect which is performed before the physical acts. The physical was considered a taboo, thus it's considered Antinomian to the purely spiritual science and in flux with Dharma, taught by the earlier gurus.

The terms were apprehended to conceptualize types of mind set:

RHP = Liberation from the Material sole concern with the Spiritial

LHP = Liberation through dissolve of the line dividing the Material/Spiritual

The tantric rituals involved the 5 M's [Makara] (Madya, Mamsa, Matsya, Mudra, Maethuna)

The English translations can conflate what's going on there. There's not 100% agreement on the translations either. Case in point during 5th - 12th centuries, there was no mention of Dakchinacara in the earliest writings. The later rituals developed into Madhyama Vamacara where they include both Makara; and Uttama Vamacara.

For example Madya = Wine

In the earliest of teachings it was taught that a physical 'attachment' (Dhukka) could be overcome by indulging in it, until you finally leave it. The end goal there was to be released from a physical matter. The RHP approach is to fast, and experience the 'spiritual' manifestation of Madya whereas the LHP approach is to pour a glass of wine in ritual, drink as a symbolic representation of the physical matter then move on to the next step. This was all part of the actual rituals performed in Tantra before the physical act of Union (Drinking, Eating, Ritual Practice).

Mamsa = Meat (Flesh)

The RHP approach is breathing exercises and controlling speech.
The LHP is to actually eat flesh and use speech.

Matsya = Fish

Same as Meat but deals in controlling mental impulses through meditations.

Mudra = Those that help, includes a lot of mind/body exercises

RHP = accepting the teaching and instruction of Ascended Masters
LHP = acting as the role as Master

Maethuna = Union (crude/sex)

RHP = Spiritual purpose (Union of Conscious & Supreme Consciousness)
LHP = For pleasure and achieving ecstatic states


The Aghori rise as Antinomian to the cultural idea sets because of the traditional practices of Tantra in flux with Dakshinacara, which is considered more modern. Those that renounce the traditional practices of Tantra.

I can see where Dimi is seeing it RHP, his conclusion makes sense because the Aghori are on the Left Path with a seemingly RHP goal. I say seemingly because a person wouldn't last long if they completely released themselves from eating, drinking and union with other human beings.

Tantra is considered a spiritual science because it's a progressive approach towards internal transformation to achieve higher levels of human experience.


Dakshinacarins are considered RHP because they renounce all physical Tantric practices in favor of the mental discipline. Bhatki, which translates to basically Devotion. They interpret the 5 M's to be solely the spiritual/mental and do not partake in the physical practices during their rituals.

There was such a schism that much of the rhetoric turned Vamacharias into Devils.
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