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#12510 - 10/11/08 07:32 PM Re: Something for the Noobs [Re: Dan_Dread]
Octavius Offline
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Registered: 08/28/07
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Care to qualify your criticism with specifics? I'm interested to hear your opinions on why this has nothing to do with Satanism as you see it.

Octavius
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#12518 - 10/11/08 07:52 PM Re: Something for the Noobs [Re: Octavius]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
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You may have misunderstood, my words were not meant as a criticism 'per say'.

I would go so far as to say most of your opinions are Satanic,(despite whatever obvious sour grapes you carry against the core materials of Satanism), but they aren't Satanism, which is clearly defined in The Satanic Bible already.

It is my opinion that if one can not extrapolate what Satanism is from TSB, any and all further clarification is wasted.

Satanists are born, not made. Most will never get it.
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#12521 - 10/11/08 08:06 PM Re: Something for the Noobs [Re: Dan_Dread]
blsk Offline
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Thank you. Very informative. I love the nine points of mastery. As I recall I have never heard them. I also like your presentation and reading skills. Such things when done correctly demand respect and are crucial to the success of a debate or conversation. So thank you for that and I look forward to more. Thank you for your time.
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#12543 - 10/12/08 12:00 AM Re: Something for the Noobs [Re: Dan_Dread]
Octavius Offline
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Registered: 08/28/07
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 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
You may have misunderstood, my words were not meant as a criticism 'per say'.

I would go so far as to say most of your opinions are Satanic,(despite whatever obvious sour grapes you carry against the core materials of Satanism), but they aren't Satanism, which is clearly defined in The Satanic Bible already.

It is my opinion that if one can not extrapolate what Satanism is from TSB, any and all further clarification is wasted.


Satanists are born, not made. Most will never get it.





I view the Satanic Bible as a springboard. It cannot be the beginning and the end of Satanic thought. I have no "sour grapes" carried against the core materials set forth by the SB, but it only begins to define Satanism. Naturally, this is my personal experience. For others, the SB may well be the new Gospel. But to categorize it as such is a disservice to the book itself, and to Uncle Anton. At least for me. Thanks for your feedback, I appreciate it.


Edited by Octavius (10/12/08 12:02 AM)
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#12545 - 10/12/08 12:20 AM Re: Something for the Noobs [Re: Octavius]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
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The way I see it, Satanism is more of a descriptor for a pre-existing type of person than a philosophy per say. You agree with TSB or you don't. There is no gospel that wasn't already in your sinews and your bones.

I don't really feel that there is anything left to say on that core thing. Ok, we all agree on these core principles, now what?
Do stuff from a Satanic perspective. Why not? Thats productive.
What isnt productive is trying to further grow the concept of Satanism itself.It doesn't need any 'new stuff' That just creates division, confusion, and obfuscation.
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#12578 - 10/12/08 10:56 PM Re: Something for the Noobs [Re: Dan_Dread]
Octavius Offline
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Posts: 557
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So Satanism has gone as far as it can in your opinion? Well, you are entitled you your opinion, however myopic it may seem. It would seem to me that an attitude of stagnancy would be counter-productive to the satanic mind.

(...and it's spelled 'per se.')
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#12583 - 10/13/08 01:21 AM Re: Something for the Noobs [Re: Octavius]
Dan_Dread Offline
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You are confusing Satanism itself with what individual Satanists do. You aren't Satanism. Satanism isn't you.
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#12584 - 10/13/08 01:25 AM Re: Something for the Noobs [Re: Dan_Dread]
Dan_Dread Offline
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In fact, I think you have it completely backwards. The more you try to further define Satanism, the more narrow and constricting it becomes. Satanism is bare bones philosophy for a reason. You are slowly choking it off and eliminating wiggle room for real growth every time you try to add something to it.

You have your opinions, I have mine. please do not try to pass off opinions as Satanism, when Satanic will do.
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#12592 - 10/13/08 11:20 AM Re: Something for the Noobs [Re: Dan_Dread]
Kon Offline
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Registered: 03/21/08
Posts: 86
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I was under the impression that Satanism as you're describing it is called Traditional Laveyan Satanism dude.

You can't discredit Octavius simply because you've never actually read these beliefs in your "manual" the Satanic Bible, unless this forum is ONLY for the strictly Laveyan. If it is I should have been banned long ago.

Even though I understand exactly what you mean by suffocating the cause for lack of production and I also disagree with almost everything Octavius has chosen to express, but for different reasons.
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#12600 - 10/13/08 04:02 PM Re: Something for the Noobs [Re: Kon]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
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Using the words traditional or LaVeyan or modern in conjunction with Satanism is redundant.

The appearance of these words are a sure demarcation the author doesn't quite get it.
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#12601 - 10/13/08 04:07 PM Re: Something for the Noobs [Re: Dan_Dread]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Just as a note, and for the record, I actually agreed with just about everything Octavius said in his video.

My only issue here is that I feel the line between what Satanism is and what Satanists do has been blurred.
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#12609 - 10/13/08 06:55 PM Re: Something for the Noobs [Re: Dan_Dread]
Fabiano Offline
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Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
Well, there is a lot to say on the initial subject (started in Aug) and on the thread itself (reactivated by DD).

A preliminary remark: as I'm not an english native speaker I could have missed or misunderstood some parts of the Octavius' speach. Sorry for that...

First it makes me smile to hear Octavius saying "Our beliefs mus be questionned" and seeing nobody questionning what was just said. Everybody just simply agrees, not putting in question even a single point. Is it so "just", so "true" that there is nothhing to say?

At least DD Started chanlleging the Satanist Octavius is. That's not what he advised in the beggining of his speach after all?
Aren't we here for challenging each others, thus "putting our beliefs in question"?

I do not see any intent of discrediting or hurting anybody in DD posts.

2nd point is about the definition of Satanism. Many post are just "waste of time" due to unaligned or multiple acceptations or definition of Satanism. From the broader/wider acceptation (as in "there are as many forms of Satanism than there are Satanists" from the most reduced/specialised (as in "Satanism is what described in TSB, no more no less" or "Satanism is about worshiping the devil" - seen in anothoer thread).
Might be more clear to use Satanism for the wide acceptation and "Theist Satanism" or "LaVey's Satanism" for less confusion.
Saying Theist Satanists are not Satanist it stricly taken a non-sense!

This was for the thread.

Let's come back to the video.

I agree with the 7 signs of spiritual slavery. This describes quite well the principles applyied in many sectarian movements. Good memory refresh.

Regarding the 9 points, there all constructed as two-folded sentences ending with a "logical" conclusion. However, I think these should be questionned.

Points 2, 3 & Nine have been already discussed by philosophers (Bergson) or Buddhists (views are close to the buddhist school of "the sole thought".).
In brief, it defends the point of view that reality exists only as a perception in some individual.

I however find assertions like "good an evil exist only in the mind of the individual" (N2) a little bit dangerous if misunderstood. We should not fall in the simplistic "do what you want"...

N4 : it's true that's the indiv. is free to act or not. Concluding he is only responsible for his situation is may be a to quick shortcut. What about the context, the environment, the good & bad surprises of life ?

N5 Pain is not necessary for understanding principles ==> No purpose for human suffereing. Again, quikly concluded.
What about the suffering for somthing else that teaching/understanding principles?
If pain is not necessary, it does not mean it's "forbidden", so it could be used and maybe useful.

What about compassion rituals where you cry with tears? Are you not suffering? Is it useless ?

N7 Faith is ... ==> Truth can be found only through reason. What's thruth? What about intuition ?

N8 "The Self & the body". This old dual view of the human. Well, saying that the body is just a tool of the self is just an opinion amongst many other ones (and probably not the most original). Some view the self as a consequence of the body (all is explainable by electric signals and chimic reactions in the brain and the body). This is a very "genetic / mechanistic" view but it is sustainable. In this perspective, immortalising the body will de facto immortalise the self (providing you can stop the body degradation at one point in time).
Let's come back to your view. Imortality is throught immortilising the Self. You have the instruction mnual for immortilising the Self? In addition the self = identity+ego. What are identity & ego?
Finally, is it not in contradiction with point 1 saying that "there is nothing after death"?


This being said Octavius, I hope you will accept my comments as a challenge rather than as criticism.

I have no issue in accepting at the same time that "I'm born as a Satanist" and "that I should question myself". Being a Satanist is not against bettering oneself !

And I think I'm a Satanist because there is a part of me who always refused Spiritual Slavery (thus any kind of slavery).
I like Laveyan Satanism because Satanists are free to live their Satanism as they want. Refering to TSB is good to place the context, for precising what "kind of Satanism" it's about. Surely not for taking it to the letter!. Adding other stuff, bringing new ideas is good to challenge ourselves, but surely not for making a bigger bible that would be taken again to the letter !
We should also avoid loosing ourselve in the complexity and intricity of philosophical, metaphisical or "theological" thoughts.

Listen to your gut-feelings, we're just animals after all !



Edited by Fabiano (10/13/08 07:01 PM)

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#12613 - 10/13/08 07:54 PM Re: Something for the Noobs [Re: Fabiano]
Kon Offline
pledge


Registered: 03/21/08
Posts: 86
Loc: Berlin, Germany
 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
Using the words traditional or LaVeyan or modern in conjunction with Satanism is redundant.

The appearance of these words are a sure demarcation the author doesn't quite get it.



This tells me that either you're older than me, or that you're a devout Laveyan follower. Either way you've disproved no one.

The hypocrisy is so thick in your words a n00b could call you out. Most you've written have been opinions, perhaps the opinions of an experienced satanic follower, but if you boil batshit and goat balls for a month you still have nothing worth eating.

I'm not a Laveyan Satanist, nor do I believe your BS about you knowing more than I about anything philosophical.

You would piss yourself....
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#12619 - 10/13/08 08:27 PM Re: Something for the Noobs [Re: Kon]
Octavius Offline
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Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 557
Loc: Left the party
Well, I'm certainly glad this is creating some discussion other than the usual tripe that's been floating around here. Yes, the views I presented most certainly should be challenged, and I'm very glad to see that they are. I'm glad to see I got some of you thinking.

The argument of the TSB and LaVeyan Satanism being "good enough" is ludicrous in my opinion. If it was, then the CoS would have crumbled under it's own shortcomings long ago...some may argue it did. But without further thought and new ideas on Satanism, we wouldn't have the Temple of Set, Order of The Nine Angles, FCoS, Satanic Empire, FSC, Luciferianism, etc. Again, it's the nature of Satanism to take nothing at face value. Challenge it all and create your own world. If the Satanic Bible is good enough, then we're no better than any other organized religion or philosophy that calls it's tenets infallible. That's just not acceptable if we're to consider ourselves "elite" as LaVey decries.

As for me "not getting it"...

That's quite true if you compare what I've presented against an infallible set of Satanic directives. In that respect, then the CoS needs you! Goose-step on over and register on the CoS's forum where you can pander to others who like to keep their minds locked in mired and misinterpreted dogma. Their demands for tithing and inability to reinterpret anything that Uncle Anton wrote only solidifies them as sycophants with no agenda other than to worship a dead man as God. Sound familiar?

This isn't to say that what I've presented is any kind of new Gospel. Take from it what you will. My intent is to get people looking outside the Black Book at other possibilities, especially in esoteric and metaphysical ways. Check out my other two episodes for more on that.

What "Satanism is" and what "Satanists do" is a poor argument in semantics. No one defines what Satanists do. We do what serves our own individual best interests. There's nothing "bare-bones" about Satanism unless you choose not to look past the printed word.

More on this to come, I'm sure. Thanks for all the replies.

Octavius
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#12625 - 10/13/08 08:50 PM Re: Something for the Noobs [Re: Octavius]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3887
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Ok Octavius. Do you think you are going to change Satanism into something else? What exactly do you feel is 'wrong' with it that you think needs changing?

Your comments about LaVey worship were a pretty low blow. Do you really feel anyone that doesn't want to change Satanism into something else is a sycophant that wants to worship a dead man as a god? Give me a break!

And the 'semantics' of my 'argument' (statement) about blurring the line between what satanists do and what Satanism is were not 'poor'
For instance. You like to make videos with your opinions about Satanism. That is what you, a Satanist, are doing. What you are not doing is changing what Satanism 'is' in any way, shape, or form.
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