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#19737 - 02/06/09 04:49 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Dimitri]
Fabiano Offline
member


Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
 Quote:
Zebu and mike:
If you know a bible a bit like I do, you should have known it's an overall misinterpretation to say the hell exists. Following the NT Hell will only be created by god on the end of the apocalypse. Normally when people die in christian mythology they tend to go to a sort of world of lost souls. While the good Christians may automatically go to heaven. However due to religious rapture and crave for control this has been changed a bit.


Dimitri, I have a question for you :

How this sentence fits in your "only in the future" hell model?
 Quote:
For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment;...
2 Peter 2:4

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#19738 - 02/06/09 04:57 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Fabiano]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3138
 Quote:
How this sentence fits in your "only in the future" hell model?
 Quote:
:
For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment....
2 Peter 2:4


Hell by the christian bible is described as a fiery pit where Satan will be punished together with "the sinners".
I've marked the differences in fat. The peter quote you gave me shows they are waiting for their judgement aka Apocalypse and where they wait till hell is created.
They are in the waiting room or as I described: world for lost souls.

Also: the bible is made of different writings from different persons from different times. It confuses things. While the last story talks about hell being created during apocalypse, other writings say hell already exists. I can start to quote other paragraphs from it which may erase your statement. But as said many times before, the book contradicts itself. It shows the one who made it up wasn't really paying attention, read to fast and didn't even try to adjust differences/contradictions.

I'm not planning to make this topic into a "true" vs "false" statement in bible discussion..


Edited by Dimitri (02/06/09 05:05 AM)
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#19739 - 02/06/09 05:30 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Dimitri]
Fabiano Offline
member


Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
I'm not planning to make it into a "true" vs "false" neither...

I was just highlighting that hell can be interpreted in different ways; in 2 Peter 2; hell seems assimilated to a "waiting room" not a "fiery pit". In addition, this is complicated by the fact that we're are reading translations of the bible; translations which are depending on the translator.

For instance in Louis Second 's edition of the bible you cannot find the word "enfer" (french translation of "hell").

Such discussion about hell is only scratching the surface of religion, kinda waste of time to me.
Hell does not exists neither as a gloomy dungeon neither as a fiery pit. So, what a waste of time to discuss, fight and battle to know who's right about this.

Religion is worth only when read in between the lines...

Hell exists, we're all living in it !

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#19744 - 02/06/09 06:11 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Fabiano]
Zoid Offline
member


Registered: 01/24/09
Posts: 109
Loc: USA - New Jersey
 Originally Posted By: Fabiano

Hell exists, we're all living in it !


Said semi-jokingly, if I understand you correctly, yet there's a moderately serious perspective from which I agree with your statement.

I embrace Satan as a Jungian archetype of the collective unconscious, and one dimension of that archetype is the meta-political position of being "Lord of This World," which could cause us to rename this world as "Hell," since Satan rules here.

I hasten to add that Satan as an archetype of the collective unconscious would by definition transcend Christianity, since the collective unconscious transcends Christianity, and thus Hell would simply represent this world as seen with undefiled wisdom rather than hypocritical self-deceit; I.e., it would represent this world as seen in its proper cosmic position; namely, under Satan's thumb.

Another dimension of the Satan archetype, as I perceive it, could be expressed as follows:

"Satan represents the alliance of Id plus Ego victorious over the Superego!"

Yes, I happily synthesize Freud and Jung. It's my party and I'll combine if I want to. \:\)

Thus Hell represents this world perceived as under the thumb of Id plus Ego and by no means whatsoever subservient to Superego or its tawdry demands.

Hell (this world) is the paradisio diabolico!

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#19753 - 02/06/09 07:32 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Zoid]
ortho Offline
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Registered: 01/03/08
Posts: 25
Loc: France.Paris
Hello,
Who is "Shaïtan"? Is it a model of an Hebrew compilation of the Babylonian mystic they have received during their transportation in captivity at Babylone?
Have look on Authentic history through archeology, and true texts (not those which have been re-writen by catholic Church 2 or 3 centuries later the arrival of Jesus "YHShVH", the "avatara" of "GOD".
In the Catholic text "Confiteor"(latin) we can see "Inferos" and not "Infernos"! Inferos means under, at or in "the bottom".
Nothing else! Because it seems we are living on the earth(Hell?"Tartar" ? in Greek? and not in the Sky (heaven)
OM TAT SAT!
That is!

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#19758 - 02/06/09 10:17 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Dimitri]
Gratikus Offline
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Registered: 05/24/08
Posts: 61
[quote=Dimitri]
 Quote:

Gratikus: you are making a mistake here. In Satanism there are as much mentally ill people as Christianity as in Islam as in other religions. As soon as people start to see demons, gods, angels, Christ, Buddha, Mohammed,... they are mentally ill.


This is why I said only Theistic Satanism attracts the mentally ill, because Modern Satanism doesn't believe demons, gods, angels or any other apprehensions to exist beyond your own mind.


In Modern Satanism, aka LaVeyian Satanism, the practitioner must know how to separate his psychodrama from reality. A mentally ill person is incapable of doing this. The mentally ill person does not know how to draw a line between fantasy and reality, there "line of sanity" has been erased. In Modern Satanism, that "line of sanity" is always acknowledged and respected. Sure, we Modern Satanist worship the subconscious mind, but we are fully aware that the subconscious mind can not have total reign.

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#19759 - 02/06/09 10:32 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Gratikus]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
Well said, Gratikus.

All I would add for those who would think that in working within our own subconscious on the psychodramatic level is that while we might use the terminologies of religious constructs, in the names of traditional "demons" or "forces," we are in no way giving tangibility or a sense of power OVER us, rather we are considering their names as a symbol of the power traditionally ascribed to that entity as a part of our own being that we would seek to invoke, enhance or even, in some cases negate.

In doing this, realizing that we are bound to the reality in which we live, yet considering the subconscious and its influences upon us and our visions OF our reality, we're also honoring the role of dichotomy in human nature and indeed of much of the world in general. We are simultaneously dealing with fact and fantasy in order to integrate the dichotomic whole.
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#19786 - 02/06/09 04:18 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Gratikus]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1646
Loc: Orlando, FL
You pretty much hit the mark. Jake as well.

Although needless to say I've met some mentally ill Christians who claimed to physically see demons and angels everywhere, and based on their emotional demeanor were clearly not quite healthy in the head. Overall they're not that much different from the crazies in Satanism.
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#19789 - 02/06/09 04:44 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Jake999]
Zoid Offline
member


Registered: 01/24/09
Posts: 109
Loc: USA - New Jersey
 Originally Posted By: Jake999
All I would add for those who would think that in working within our own subconscious on the psychodramatic level is that while we might use the terminologies of religious constructs, in the names of traditional "demons" or "forces," we are in no way giving tangibility or a sense of power OVER us...


Jake, I've been sitting here thinking about your statement above. I certainly agree with it. What struck me was that you felt it needed to be said. At first I didn't understand why that would be the case. But I know you've been doing this a long time so I sat quietly and tried to understand. I think I get it now.

There is a horror motif whereby the foolish disciple of some dark god or demon will serve faithfully, usually performing tasks that will bring the dark god or demon physically into our world where it can wreak havoc. The foolish disciple labors under the delusion of ultimately being rewarded for faithful service, with the reward generally envisioned as a position of power in the new world order. Finally the dark god or demon manifests, perhaps only briefly, but even in its short time here in our world it finds time to make a quick meal of the foolish disciple.

It occurs to me that some who profess a belief in an entity separate from themselves named Satan might be employing the same logic as the foolish disciple described above. "I will serve Satan faithfully, and when Satan takes over the world, I will be rewarded with a position of power." I bet such thinking is more prevalent than I would have guessed. And thus it is important to clarify that we who see Satan as an aspect of ourselves do not in any way subscribe to the logic of the foolish disciple who ends up a tasty morsel.

I continue to find value here on this forum. Thank you, Jake.

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#19790 - 02/06/09 05:02 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Zoid]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3884
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
People give away power because they are too afraid to accept the responsibility that power brings. They would rather have both a scapegoat to blame the perceived 'wrongs' on and a champion to give credit to than accept the consequences and/or glory for themselves. How many famous musicians or champion athletes have given all the credit to god/allah in recent history?

The first is quite understandable, yet still disgusting. In todays society, nobody is responsible for anything bad. It's their parents. Or their environment, Or their education level. Never them.

Ok, nothing new there.

But what of the trend of giving all credit to something else? One would think most would want credit for their own accomplishments. Many, however, do not. A symptom of a sick society overrun by a harmful and intuitively backwards web of judeo-christian based memetics.

Personally, I hoard as much power over my own life as I can muster. If I do something, you can be damn sure I will be taking the full share of the credit, or possibly the blame, if and when the time for either arises.
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#19807 - 02/06/09 07:03 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Dan_Dread]
joseph oreilly Offline
Incomprehensible--Banned
pledge


Registered: 01/29/09
Posts: 58
Did you ever think that constructing magic that never works but is just enough to make you believe in it, is the most evil thing of all?
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#19818 - 02/06/09 07:49 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: joseph oreilly]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3884
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Ok, I have come to the conclusion that you are either extremely unintelligent or are in the grip of a very serious and problematic drug addiction. Best of luck with that, either way.

Until such a time as you are ultimately banned I will have you on ignore, as I have concluded you will never contribute anything worth reading. As such, all future responses from you to any of my posts will be pointless on your part.
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#19820 - 02/06/09 08:05 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: joseph oreilly]
Mike Offline
member


Registered: 09/11/07
Posts: 253
Loc: Farmingdale, NY
I think what Dan is trying to say is don't post when you have little to nothing to contribute to the discussion on hand.

Number one, "constructing magic" that doesn't work obviously isn't enough to make you believe in it due to the fact that IT DIDN'T WORK. I'm just pointing out the obvious here...

Number two, what does that have to do with anything "evil"? That's a rhetorical question, don't answer it, for your own good. Constructing magic of any sort that does nothing should be enough to make you not believe in it. If it's "enough to make you believe in it", it must've worked on some level. This is of course unless you're crazy and you fooled yourself into thinking that magic only works some of the time. That would make you no better than a praying Christian man, thinking god will answer his prayers in the form of "yes, no, or eventually".

As harsh as Dan may have sounded, he's right. Even I contribute more to the average thread than you have in this post. How did you even expect people to react to you?

ps: At age 69, I would've expected a lot more from you. Instead, you just got taught a lesson from a kid who's still in high school. Honestly, either upgrade the quality of your posts, or change the age you have set on your profile to a more appropriate number...Ask Dan for a number that might suite you better.


Edited by Mike (02/06/09 08:09 PM)
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-Mike, "The Patron Satanic Saint of the Youth"

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#19848 - 02/07/09 07:06 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Gratikus]
Gabby Offline
Banned
stranger


Registered: 01/22/09
Posts: 34
Loc: West Virginia
It all depends on your understanding of the term 'insane' which is a pretty broad definition of a person's mentality and reasoning behind what they do and believe. You assume that a person who believes in demons is 'mentally ill'. Why? Because they believe in an entity? Well God is a similar entity too. I don't know for sure whether or not I am haunted by a demon. I don't talk to the demon or 'see' the demon. But he directs me in unusual ways. I have often times wondered if this is my 'shadow' though some people tell me a shadow does not act in this way as it does. The shadow would be suppressed thoughts, not act of its own accord. Maybe Satan is a prehistoric creature, that can make your desires into reality and is an entity that surpasses GOD.
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#19851 - 02/07/09 08:16 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Gabby]
Nemesis Offline
senior member


Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
Gabby, you are the LAST person who should be offering advice to others here. Especially on the topic of 'insanity', where you stated:

 Quote:
I am just insane! I love every minute of it and I will continue being insane until I die.

Oh yes...you have much sage wisdom to offer....

Mike: C'mon man...do you seriously think oreilly is 69? That's the most passe age to list oneself as...he's probably younger than you. Teenagers are the only ones who still think '69' is witty.
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