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#50642 - 03/08/11 02:38 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: ]
Michael A.Aquino Offline

Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2721
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: MatthewJ1
Was there an attempt to develop a black magical practice based on the certainty of mathematics? Probably a LBM practice? I mean was/is it possible to determine or control behaviour or other outcomes with total mathematical certainty

Yes and yes, if the situation were one which could be reduced to mathmagic or statistical probability. Anton & the C/S didn't have the opportunity to go very far with this before 1975, other than recognizing its significance and importance [as in "The Unknown Known"]. Nevertheless this entire area is one of the principal identifiable keys of Natural Law. So in both GBM & LBM if you are aware of it and use it to align your workings, you have that inertia in your favor; as Anton would say, "You tilt the Balance Factor." If you don't, your working is that much more random, and probably BF-tilted against you.

I have always been a great fan of Donald in Mathmagic Land as a great way to become sensitized to MM.

My "Ceremony of the Nine Angles" in the Satanic Rituals stinks of MM and Pythagoreanism, and Categories #12 & #20 are good resources. The Temple of Set is indeed quite entangled in MM, probably the Order of the Trapezoid most intensely. Indeed MM is integral to the O.Tr., which is something completely [and comically] elusive to those wannabeing its name.
Michael A. Aquino

#50663 - 03/08/11 08:37 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Michael A.Aquino]

My apologies Dr. if this post seems to jump a bit all over the place.

Thanks for your comments on mathmagic. It seems to me that MM is a very important area to study and research, and very useful for a competent and ethical black magician to use. I will take some time to look into it further. I want to gain a deeper understanding of the balance factor, ‘The Unknown Known’ and the ‘Ceremony of the Nine Angles’ so this study will be valuable.

I have an interest in black magical orders and am primarily attracted to the Order of the Trapezoid, as I think I may have mentioned before.

I think my initial attraction to the O.Tr. was based on two factors:

1. I was very interested in the principles which Mortensen had spoken about in his photographic treatise, and how Dr. LaVey had used those principles to perceive the world and create a powerful LBM based on the visual. I was particularly interested in the overpowering form or shape of the trapezoid and the place this shape had in LaVey’s LBM vision and his thinking. I also liked to regard the trapezoid as a sort of psychological or philosophical form, or principle, or tool, but without really thinking this through completely.
2. I had an interest in the order because I perceived it to be the inner kernel of the early C/S or the intellectual elite of the early C/S, where the most cutting edge research and thinking about the black arts was taking place.

In time I have learnt a little bit more about the O.Tr. from your eBook, particularly with regards to the Wewelsburg working. I also have developed more of an interest in the works of Dr. Flowers and the T/S reading list. To be honest my knowledge of this order is still pretty poor, but I definitely feel that there are some incredible keys available there.

Nowadays the current Church of Satan (as per their website) regards the Order of the Trapezoid this way: “The Order of the Trapezoid consists of the individuals who assist in the administration of the Church of Satan.” Administration of the Church is very important, but I do think that something may have been lost there, which is a shame.

I do note that C/S H.P Peter Gilmore mentions an Order of Fenris in his book the Satanic Scriptures. This order is/was said to include Reverend Nemo and ex – Reverend Diabolus Rex. I think this order may be a more informal arrangement, put together for musical and artistic purposes, rather than for the study of black magic principles and practices.

It is hard to judge the current C/S and what they are up to, as they have a very carefully composed public face, and a lot of what happens, I assume, takes place behind the scenes. I don’t know if they conduct magical research or not. I just don’t know.

The other black magical order which has really attracted me is the Order of Leviathan.

I tend to treasure works of art like The King in Yellow; Lovecraft’s works; The Hastur Cycle, edited by Price; and the utterly beautiful The Man who Lived in Inner Space.

I like the notion of the lurker on the edge attempting to break through into the world; or the subtext which determines and threatens to tear through into the manifest or surface text. I also like the notion of the depths, the darkest and most savage parts of the sea, which the literary character Colin feels compelled to visit, though he may lose his life, and his safety vehicle. His transformation as a result of his confrontation with this darkest and most primal environment is interesting to me and illustrates something essentially human and magical.

I tend to translate these notions into psychological terms, particularly Freudian terms with the primal basic gulf between a conscious and an unconscious and the strain and stress involved in keeping these two areas or “systems” apart. I like the notion of the unconscious depths and the "monster" which lurks there.

Works like The King in Yellow, Lovecraft’s works, and The Man who Lived in Inner Space have a real impact, though my ability to see them completely clearly and use them for magical purposes is still quite limited at this time.

(I am also interested in lycanthropy and have received Eisner’s book. I have not read it yet, however, as I have not yet received The Werewolf of Paris. I want to study both of these works together. I have been waiting about three months now to get the Werewolf from Amazon, but nothing has arrived yet.)

Edited by MatthewJ1 (03/08/11 08:46 PM)
Edit Reason: More lack of quality

#51935 - 03/30/11 10:26 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Japster]
Big Johnitalia Offline

Registered: 03/23/11
Posts: 6
I would say that Satanism is very general. Worship yourself as an elevated individual. Nature is your sacred ground. Knowledge and do what you will are the only commandments. From there you fill in the blanks. Research philosophy, and speak with others to help articulate your worldview. If you ask 10 Satanists what their philosophy is, you will have a lot of common answers. However, I bet the differences maybe surprising. Satanism is about individualism to me, and it is up to ourselves to decide what we believe in. We write our own doctrine.
-- a miserable spectacle of wrecked humanity, pitiable to others, and intolerable to myself.

#51941 - 03/30/11 04:40 PM Re: Bases of Satanisms [Re: Big Johnitalia]
nocTifer Offline

Registered: 11/07/09
Posts: 87
Loc: Khazakstan
 Originally Posted By: Big Johnitalia
I would say that Satanism is very general. Worship yourself as an elevated individual.

How general? The most general that I can imagine is: something relating in a positive way to or with whatever is called 'Satan'. Anti-Satan theology such as is practiced by Christians and Muslims appears to have laid the groundwork for the subversion ideology generation inspiring Satanisms of various and now diversifying kinds. Select the ones you like. Attempting to consecrate any set beyond your preferences seems immensely difficult to do with convincingness given the emphasis on individual choice, sovereignty of will. Each proclamation undermines the LHP and sabotages Satanism in some measure. This may be invited ("What is Satanism?" "What do Satanists believe?" "What does Satan want?" "How are Satanists different than Christians?" etc.) and it may be specified within responses to such queries rather than referring such things to the individual Satanian.

 Originally Posted By: Big Johnitalia
Nature is your sacred ground.

While I find such a stipulation personally valuable, I do not know why all Satanists should. I'd love to hear an argument in support of the axiomatic supposition of this.

 Originally Posted By: Big Johnitalia
Knowledge and do what you will are the only commandments.

'Knowledge' is not a command, though it may be inferred that you're thinking of things like 'study is demanded, not faith!' 'Do what you will' is one of the strangest 'commands' I have yet to encounter. It sets the impressionable and will-less at odds with themselves because it orders you to do what you want, rather than leaving out commands completely. It could be construed that this is the opposite of 'Do NOT do what you want to do (i.e. do what we tell you instead).' yet even this is fraught if one wants to do what one is commanded. Go figure. Why bother with it? It's a Christian/Jewish leftover in need of 'commandments'. Ask also why the need for a list of 'Sins'. Somebody's in search of guidance.

 Originally Posted By: Big Johnitalia
From there you fill in the blanks.

And so the question becomes whether one might 'fill in the blanks' (what blanks? it would be part of the knowledge which might be shared to explain what blanks are ordinarily or conventionally filled in by Satanists of any type, and how) at an earlier stage, ignoring the previous 'commandments' or anything else stipulated as 'fundamental'.

Options include the specificity that I had for you (get something positive to say about Satan and move on from there), what you said about Nature (presumably because "Everything's natural." could be seen as a premise. Is everything ordinary and mundane too? \:\) How far will we slide down into cynical materialism and leave the pragmatic employment of appearance and cognitive tools behind due to our prejudices? What other 'basics' can we identify? Why can't we do without them? I hope you see where I'm going with this. I don't find the 'If you let (any portion) mean anything then it means nothing!' argument persuasive, either, though we should be able to ask 'What makes it Satanism?'.

 Originally Posted By: Big Johnitalia
Research philosophy, and speak with others to help articulate your worldview.

I'll be the Devil's Advocate. Hard core materialists dispute the value of philosophy since it is outmoded and has become the tool of distraction and wasted efforts outside mechanics and derivation of natural principles. Researching it is fruitless, they will tell us. Why should we dispute them? Why shouldn't Satanism be advanced as a rudimentary positive thinking employing the hard sciences and relegating the rest of that 'lesser magic' shenanigans to illusions and social manipulation? Who are we kidding? Why advise our own in deceptive ways? Where's the loyalty? No honor amongst snake oil salespeople?

Ok, granted that that slippery slope is avoided, and philosophy is somehow deemed of some value inside the rational context of Satanity, how much of it and why? Ayn Rand or High Priest and Master LaVey says something is important and we ought to consider it so? I won't follow you there. Philosophy is a HUGE field, extending to numerous cultures, many languages, large swathes of time, religious hooey, undermining silly considerations adverse to the material reality we can discern is useful in technology, and we're supposed to research this morass? I can tell you that I've delved into it a bit and most religious (including Satanists) underestimate it, fail to understand its depth and complexity, and, as is conventional the world over, someone (Randi? Dawkins? Rand? Darwin?) is taken for the Final Answer and allowed to stand in search of a shortcut. And why NOT? At some point one needs to rest upon principles and make PROGRESS, else we'll be stuck in some kind of armchair poser category, dammit! So you tell me what this research should yield and why it ought be profitable, who you think we should start and stop our research with. Some BIBLE?? Puh-LEEZ! LOL

 Originally Posted By: Big Johnitalia
If you ask 10 Satanists what their philosophy is, you will have a lot of common answers.

The first challenge will be identifying who is a Satanist. Then you can ask them point blank "What is your philosophy?" Your selection of the Satanists will likely serve to predispose what answers you will be getting. Choose a satanic Christian and you'll get a hugely different set of responses from the one you choose who is a cynical materialist anti-theist of any stripe. Are there any commonalities amongst those who are not satanic Christians but may be generally (as above) described as Satanists? There is so much emphasis on thinking for yourself and coming up with your own answers that this may be too much to ask for, as you seem to explain here:
 Originally Posted By: Big Johnitalia
However, I bet the differences maybe surprising. Satanism is about individualism to me, and it is up to ourselves to decide what we believe in. We write our own doctrine.

Mapping those differences is in part what I set myself as task. The divergences will not serve the quadrants compared. Why should they? 'One Size Fits All' and 'One True Way' is what I identify as "Right-Hand Path". Solutions that satisfy everybody are as unlikely as Discordian Popes in the Roman Catholic Church. It just ain't happening.

We're left with baggage-language. Doctrine? We write it? Why bother? Why not just wing it?? Isn't that for the inept plebes who just think that they're Satanists but aren't really? C'mon, why not pare this down to the real basics instead and cut with all this Shell Gaming? Will you promote your autodemonology? Will you promote your Euhemerism? Will you promote your Master Bible writer for some reason? Objectivism? Epicureanism? These are just the G(r)eeks!! Will the research need to stem back to Lao, out to Asvaghosa and up to the present? Are you sure you want to bite off this tub of lard? How shall we avoid throwing out the concealed baubles inside it if we change our minds and decide to eject these babies' bathwater?
Troll Towelhead, Grand Mufti of Satanism

#52847 - 04/13/11 02:12 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Japster]
Ghostly1 Offline

Registered: 04/10/11
Posts: 147
Loc: NY
Ive read both the Satanic Bible, and the Satanic Rituals. I know Im Atheistic Satanism all the way. Simply put I cannot believe in a "living" devil when there is no god either. No heaven or hell. If man is the animal we know him for, we are no better off when we die then the animals we eat for food. I know my life is my one gift to get it right, and do what I can while I walk and breathe air.

I was on YouTube recently and someone was trying to say that Anton LaVey was hiding certain truths about the path of Satanism leading to a true Lucifer. Which if anyone read and understood the Books he wrote would know that is wholly contradictory, and would make him a liar. Accusing him of Theistic undertones for his own personal gain is against everything I have come to learn about Satanism as a whole. Its a shame after so many years people will spread rumors and lies which are easily wiped away with the truth. Whats more shameful is the ones who believe it all to be the truth.

Im off to order more books from Amazon.

Become a force of nature.

#53244 - 04/21/11 01:36 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Morgan]
j75 Offline

Registered: 04/21/11
Posts: 1
I lean more towards laveyan Satanism since it emphasizes symbolic access to the dark side of human nature through the concept term Satan. Traditionalist assume the literal existence of satan by reinterprating the christian tradition in reverse.Its not that I presume some form of intelligence transcendant of our own as utter lie. Its just that we ought to be more critical of the supernatural and not be gullible by accepting totally any faith that isn't tangible.
#61589 - 11/19/11 01:34 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: j75]
LeftHandonFeet Offline

Registered: 11/05/11
Posts: 109
On the topic of LaVeyan Satanism versus traditional Satanism, lets keep in mind that there are numerous paths and systems through which one can call themselves a Satanist. That of course leads us to the question- "what is the definition of a Satanist?". Very ambigious answer here.
Some we may dub Satanists do not care for the title, according to a definition we have learned or derived. Prime example: certain theistic Satanists. Yaradanists have a much more innocent or holy view of Satan.
While its true that many professed Satanists over the years have made a mockery of Yardanists view of Satan, and I can most certainly agree from a Yardanist standpoint, I always remind myself that LaVeyan Satanism does not oppose viewing Satan as god. Afterall, look through the Enochian Keys and you will see clearly the mindset of a theistic Satanist and not one who views Satan as an archetype. Granted I understand very well the purpose of Satan as an archetype, I do side with Yardanists on the argument that many LaVeyan Satanists use Satan as an archetype for convenience sakes and tarnish the holy name of Satan. Al-Jilwah and other scriptures of Yardanist/Yazidi origin still hold great prominence and importance in the Earth and their truths hold in place all across the broad spectrum of The Left Hand Path. I myself hold The Black Book of Satan very dear to heart- its promises are very unusually sacred to me and the words everlasting. No The Satanic Bible did not replace The Black Book of Satan, nor was that LaVey's intentions. LaVey revealed the common threads in all humans that were carnal and allowed man to rejoice in his self-emancipation. This explains why Satanism became so popular due to him- he understood the hypocrisy and reasoning behind Satan Hatin very unusually well and took upon himself to do the dirty deed of lifting a worldwide blanket of false conviction that causes people to be timid to be Left Handed and unafraid to live a life exemplary toward this.
Gnosticism as a Black Magician can be very proficient and has been proven ideal for masses of people throughout history- I will say to each his own in the topic of Gnostic versus Theistic Satanism. In fact it is quite possible to practice gnostic principles while holding the souls disposition of a thesitic Satanist.
"I’m just another hardline psuedo-statistic
Can you feel this?" Slipknot - The Blister Exists

#61614 - 11/19/11 11:51 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: LeftHandonFeet]
The Zebu Offline
senior member

Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1647
Loc: Orlando, FL
Some we may dub Satanists do not care for the title, according to a definition we have learned or derived. Prime example: certain theistic Satanists. Yaradanists have a much more innocent or holy view of Satan.

It is problematic to call Yazid/Sufi/Yardan believers "theistic", since Shaitan/Melek-Taus is considered to be either an angel or djinn... not gods. And even though they may regard the title "Satan" as being true, fundamental importance is placed on native names such as Melek Taus. So calling them "Satanists", or referring to the Book of Revelation as "the Black Book of Satan", are Western misnomers at best.

And self-professed Satanists will often laud the centrality of "Shaitan" in such religions, but at the expense of God, Michael, Raphael, and other beings also revered by the angelic cults.

Edited by The Zebu (11/19/11 11:53 PM)
«Recibe, ¡oh Lucifer! la sangre de esta víctima que sacrifico en tu honor.»

#61625 - 11/20/11 03:41 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Japster]
SatanicMinister Offline

Registered: 11/05/11
Posts: 9
As a Satanic-agnostic, I choose freely which form of Satanism is 'right' for me based on my own research and experience.
One phrase I have come to hate over the years is "true Satanist", "real Satanist" or anything along those lines. Who is qualified to be arbiter of deciding what is 'real' Satanism ?
Lastly, I don't believe it is even possible to fully define or comprehend Satan. To me, He is a vast force that permeates every element, form of life, happening and/or phenomena in the galaxy and is far too 'large' to be defined or pigeon holed by 'mere mortals.' In any case, best of luck to you \:\)

#81504 - 10/24/13 02:04 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Morgan]
ms666 Offline

Registered: 09/03/13
Posts: 6
I think the same too,just choose which has more sense for u.Listen to yourself,imagine what's the best in your mind.The best will be choose only by have all knowledge to judge by yourself.This is the best advise you must have.If you can't,really I do not know which answer or way to give u.So,try,try and will see by yourself.


#106206 - 04/08/16 11:30 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Japster]
Reverend Graf Offline

Registered: 03/10/16
Posts: 1
Hail Satan! = Hail Me! simple enough?

Maybe you missed our no one-liner policy. Tell you what, take a week off, read what this place is all about, come back and post something more substantial. - Fist

#106209 - 04/08/16 04:09 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Reverend Graf]
LordBlyat Offline

Registered: 03/21/15
Posts: 118
 Originally Posted By: Reverend Graf
Hail Satan! = Hail Me! simple enough?

LOL... it would be very funny if this Reverend Gaff got banned: we'd have three banned strangers in a row in this thread!

Sadly... it's not going to happen, since the admins here are phantoms and have lost their sense of standards.

#106237 - 04/10/16 01:31 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: LordBlyat]
Asmedious Moderator Offline
senior member

Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 1826
Loc: New York
Sadly... it's not going to happen, since the admins here are phantoms and have lost their sense of standards

Poster banned for six month, for low posting standards!!

Only kidding...sorry, couldn't resist. \:D
"The first order of government is the protection of its citizens right to be left alone."

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