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#11154 - 09/01/08 11:33 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Sinistar]
Raziel LaVey Offline
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Registered: 08/27/08
Posts: 27
I am a firm believer that there is a Creator, and Satan is the best suited figurehead for the role. God is a title, my God is Satan.

After that, you are free to recognize him however you wish. I am very into collecting as many books as you can on the subject and apply what makes sense to your life.

Religion, to me, is a tool to focus beliefs, principles and practices. LaVeyan is thought of as Athiestic as in Satan is simply an idea we emulate whereas Traditional is thought of as Satan is your God.

Is he your God or an idea? There is no right or wrong, beliefs are part of your character. If you think he is an idea, you are right. If he is real and he is your God, you are right. You are free to express your beliefs however you wish just so long as you aren't cramming them down anyone else's throat. All that is important is you practice what you preach (it all comes back to character).

We are no one to tell anyone they are wrong.

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#11171 - 09/02/08 09:05 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Xande]
Happy Birthday SevenDeadlySins Offline
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Registered: 01/15/08
Posts: 41
Loc: chicago illinois
Well said .
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#11177 - 09/03/08 07:06 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: SevenDeadlySins]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3118
What makes you believe there is a creator?
I prefer to call it a "force". I mean, it sounds so unlogical to me that there was already a being who was thinking to himself "let me create something".
A force is more neutral and you can give different names to it.
Some like to call it Satan, others Seth, other ones Allah or God and so on.
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#11179 - 09/03/08 10:18 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Dimitri]
Raziel LaVey Offline
stranger


Registered: 08/27/08
Posts: 27
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
What makes you believe there is a creator?
I prefer to call it a "force". I mean, it sounds so unlogical to me that there was already a being who was thinking to himself "let me create something".
A force is more neutral and you can give different names to it.
Some like to call it Satan, others Seth, other ones Allah or God and so on.


One thing I learned is everything is created twice. Just as the keyboard you type on and the monitor which displays this very page was once a thought in the mind of man, we are thoughts in the mind of God. To put it even more simply, I view God as a big mind and we are all thoughts in the mind of God. To create, all one has to do is think, or imagine. To create again, simply follow through.

Once I was watching this show on Animal Planet about these bears, and these bears lived on a river. That river had this natural life-cycle. The cycle went as followed:

The bears feed on the fish that swim in the river. The fish lay eggs down the river, and there's these bugs that fly up the river to lay their eggs. After they lay their eggs they die, fall into the water and flow downstream just as these fish hatch and they eat the dead bugs.

A system far to intelligent in design (to me) to be left in the hands of mere chance. God is a "force" just as you say, a great force of balance. His will is merely common sense and personal responsibility.


Edited by Raziel LaVey (09/03/08 10:19 AM)

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#11181 - 09/03/08 02:40 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Raziel LaVey]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1640
Loc: Orlando, FL
I have two answers for this.

I believe in a bythos that I give the name Azoth (the monad, as labeled by Crowley). This is what I would describe as "the ultimate cosmic god" or the supreme force of both creation and destruction. However, I believe this force is not necessarily sentient, nor is it anthropomorphic (or anthropocentric for that matter)- and nor is it personal in any way. It doesn't "care" about inhumanity, just as a human doesn't care about a tiny fleck of dust resting under a table. I can't say for sure whether or not this force is supernatural, but it wouldn't matter in either case.

I would say that Satan/Lucifer is one of my "personal gods" but certainly not a supernatural force so much as the "dark force in nature and psychology" that LaVeyan Satanists identify with. As Satan is a symbol that exists within humanity, the same could possibly be said about other "gods".

In my opinion it doesn't make sense to equate the Monad/Cosmic God with any kind of minor human-dependent deity like Yahweh or Satan. But if you think Satan is the creator of the universe or something, go right ahead, more power to ya. Just don't expect everyone to worship him.

But I must say that one thing that bothers me particularly is when Theistic or Spiritual Satanists say that atheists or symbolists cannot be "true Satanists". In their view, Satan is a supernatural god, so if other people do not believe this tenet, they cannot be real satanists. But in my view, Satan is clearly observable as a human symbol- the main difference is that Theistic Satanists attribute this to a supernatural origin and atheistic Satanists to a natural one. What difference does it make, then, as to where we believe this force comes as long as we both exalt it as our religion?

The truth of a religion should not have to rest on supernatural assumptions- stripped of such, you should at least be able to have a solid core of philosophy that can be applied to the real world. Otherwise you would just have meaningless superstitions.

I don't care if people believe in the supernatural or not. If it gives their life meaning, good for them, so long as they give themselves sufficient reality checks every so often to make sure they're not blowing other people (or themselves) up over myths.
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#11182 - 09/03/08 04:06 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Raziel LaVey]
ta2zz Offline
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Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 1552
Loc: Connecticut

 Originally Posted By: Raziel LaVey
A system far to intelligent in design (to me) to be left in the hands of mere chance. God is a "force" just as you say, a great force of balance. His will is merely common sense and personal responsibility.

So you believe in intelligent design? Who in your mind is God responsible to, where is his commonsense... How do you attribute such human concepts to something that would be so immensely beyond human comprehension...

~T~

To cast doubt on intelligent design I submit the eyeball for examination...
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#11183 - 09/03/08 04:13 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: ta2zz]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3118
 Quote:
So you believe in intelligent design? Who in your mind is God responsible to, where is his commonsense... How do you attribute such human concepts to something that would be so immensely beyond human comprehension...

I also would like to add on your question Ta2zz: Where did he get the matter to create it all? I don't know if someone noticed but the universe is fucking huge... Even our solar system is enormous and then to think how much tons of matter there is within...
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#11184 - 09/03/08 04:14 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: The Zebu]
ta2zz Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 1552
Loc: Connecticut

I am Satan I am God... The ability to be Satan or God lies in every human being that has ever lived... After all religion is nothing but a human construct to cope with fear for the the unexplainable and unavoidable... Such as night and day to primitive man, and death...

My demons reside fully in my own head...

~T~
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#11185 - 09/03/08 04:28 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Dimitri]
ta2zz Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 1552
Loc: Connecticut

 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
I also would like to add on your question Ta2zz: Where did he get the matter to create it all? I don't know if someone noticed but the universe is fucking huge... Even our solar system is enormous and then to think how much tons of matter there is within...

Perhaps god scratched his balls and all the matter we know of is just his flaked off dried out funk…

Here are a couple of posts dealing with the size of the known universe and the probability of unintelligent life prevailing over intelligent in the as of yet unexplored universe…

Look at the size of that thing!!!

Unintelligent life is likely on other planets

Enjoy…

~T~
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We are the music makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams. ~Arthur William Edgar O'Shaughnessy

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#11187 - 09/03/08 04:33 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: ta2zz]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3118
 Quote:
Perhaps god scratched his balls and all the matter we know of is just his flaked off dried out funk…

I was thinking the same thing actually it seems like the only reasonable response I could find...

I'm going to check out these links, altough I am quite sure there must be some life anywere in the universe, looks quite impossible we are alone here..
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#11190 - 09/03/08 08:45 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: ta2zz]
Raziel LaVey Offline
stranger


Registered: 08/27/08
Posts: 27
God isn't responsible to anyone, we are responsible to ourselves.

Common sense? Responsibility, integrity, character. Simple things that lend toward one's credibility.

We can only understand God to the degree in which we understand ourselves and the world, which is where science comes in. Science has never went against religion in the past. Science was thought to help man understand God's design... God's mind. We attribute human concepts to something 'so immensely beyond human comprehension' because he made us in his image, as Gods ourselves... So we naturally create him in our image to better understand something we long to comprehend, which brings me to my personal understanding.

I view life as a journey towards knowing God, aligning ourselves with him, becoming as him.

Gods are immortal men, and men are mortal gods.

How would that cast doubt on intelligent design? The eyeball is an incredible piece of work

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#11191 - 09/03/08 08:50 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Dimitri]
Raziel LaVey Offline
stranger


Registered: 08/27/08
Posts: 27
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
 Quote:
So you believe in intelligent design? Who in your mind is God responsible to, where is his commonsense... How do you attribute such human concepts to something that would be so immensely beyond human comprehension...

I also would like to add on your question Ta2zz: Where did he get the matter to create it all? I don't know if someone noticed but the universe is fucking huge... Even our solar system is enormous and then to think how much tons of matter there is within...


Heh. I somewhat answered this before you asked it. God is one big mind. The universe and all things within it are thoughts in the mind of God. In fact, from what I understand about dark matter and dark energy... That could be him. It keeps the planets and the stars and all things in balance.

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#11192 - 09/04/08 02:37 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Raziel LaVey]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3118
Hmmm, answer doesn't fit for me. If we are toughts we could have been easily vanquished thousands of years ago. Also what to do with the dinosaurs? I can't believe we are a product of some "being" who keeps on fantasising.

I don't know what you think but about what you are talking about to me looks like inversed christianity.
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#11193 - 09/04/08 05:31 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Raziel LaVey]
MaggotFaceMoe Offline
member


Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 164
Loc: Finland
What do you mean by saying science has never went against religion in the past? What is the past and when does present begin in your mind? Do you think Darwin was just trying to present God's designs in a more comprehensible way so that fellow men can better understand his magnificent mind?
It may be that I've missed something but I don't recall when a scientist was studying nature just to, in your words, trying to "help man understand God's design... God's mind".

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#11194 - 09/04/08 05:41 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: MaggotFaceMoe]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3118
MFM; It is true that science never went against religion..
Religion on the other hand did so.
Like I'm having a discussion at the moment with "christians" (I call them idiots because I even know their religion more than they do..) about that the earth is round and has always been written in the bible it was round. Trying to convince them they believed the earth was flat but round in shape and not spheric.
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