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#11195 - 09/04/08 06:52 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Raziel LaVey]
Fist Moderator Offline
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 Quote:
The universe and all things within it are thoughts in the mind of God.


How did you come by this knowledge? How is it that you understand the true nature of god?

Please explain....
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#11196 - 09/04/08 10:03 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Fist]
Raziel LaVey Offline
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Registered: 08/27/08
Posts: 27
 Quote:
Just don't expect everyone to worship him.


Oh, I don't. Our individual freedom is granted by Him. Who am I to deny anyone of that right?

 Quote:
But I must say that one thing that bothers me particularly is when Theistic or Spiritual Satanists say that atheists or symbolists cannot be "true Satanists".


What is a True Satanist? While I admit I cannot comprehend how anyone can deny the existance of a creator (as it would make our existance on earth seem very very very pointless and make everything on earth from religion to politics to love and procreation an enormus waste of time) it is merely faith and understanding that makes it real to me, and for someone who doesn't believe in a creator, that faith and understanding makes that real to them.

 Quote:
In their view, Satan is a supernatural god, so if other people do not believe this tenet, they cannot be real satanists. But in my view, Satan is clearly observable as a human symbol- the main difference is that Theistic Satanists attribute this to a supernatural origin and atheistic Satanists to a natural one. What difference does it make, then, as to where we believe this force comes as long as we both exalt it as our religion?


A hypocrisy in my eyes, "real satanists." I thought one of the big things we disagreed with in Xtianity was fundamentalism.

 Quote:
The truth of a religion should not have to rest on supernatural assumptions- stripped of such, you should at least be able to have a solid core of philosophy that can be applied to the real world. Otherwise you would just have meaningless superstitions.


Supernatural things, such as ghosts, magick and the like are all the domain of the right mind. The right mind is artistic, the dreaming mind. Philosophy is of the left. You cannot apply to the right mind the principles of the left. All you will have is, as you say, meaningless superstitions. On the other hand, faith and belief makes it just as real. It's the role ritual plays in our religion... Reinforcement of faith... Experiencing Satan. No logic can explain what we experience in the "Intellectual Decompression Chamber", all we have are ideas and theories which can be applied, all of which are supported by faith and belief (LaVey DOES speak of faith and the power of magick, and to say that the difference between Satanists and White Lighters are that Satanists engage in ritual understanding we are "practicing a form of contrived ignorance" makes ritual seem pointless) .

 Quote:
How did you come by this knowledge? How is it that you understand the true nature of god?


First, don't get me wrong. I am not standing before you claiming to have THE ANSWER, just MY UNDERSTANDING.

Have you ever read the Hermetica?
http://www.amazon.com/Hermetica-Lost-Wis...20536433&sr=8-2?

First, The Hermetica is the teaching of Hermes, who was the Greek equivilent to the Egyptian Thoth, who as we know was the God of Magick and the Architect of the pyramids (which are aligned with fixed stars in the sky viewed as heaven).

The Hermetica explains creation. We are all created in the image of God, granted the divine gift of mind. Think about it... We can change the topography of the earth, we can create our own lakes, islands... We understand the animals to such a degree we can create the perfect environment for them ANYWHERE WE WANT (just like the rainforest zoo we created in the netherlands) because we understood the nature of his creations, we understood his thoughts and his mind.

Just as you can picture a world in your head... You know the rest.


Edited by Raziel LaVey (09/04/08 10:24 AM)

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#11197 - 09/04/08 10:06 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Dimitri]
Raziel LaVey Offline
stranger


Registered: 08/27/08
Posts: 27
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
Hmmm, answer doesn't fit for me. If we are toughts we could have been easily vanquished thousands of years ago. Also what to do with the dinosaurs? I can't believe we are a product of some "being" who keeps on fantasising.

I don't know what you think but about what you are talking about to me looks like inversed christianity.


Seeing how many of these views existed before Christianity, I view Christianity as an inversion of everything I believe.

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#11198 - 09/04/08 11:53 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Raziel LaVey]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3151
 Quote:
While I admit I cannot comprehend how anyone can deny the existance of a creator (as it would make our existance on earth seem very very very pointless and make everything on earth from religion to politics to love and procreation an enormus waste of time) it is merely faith and understanding that makes it real to me, and for someone who doesn't believe in a creator, that faith and understanding makes that real to them.

Our existance is almost pointless I'm quite sure about that.
The only thing is; because it is pointless you can't enjoy it.
We were just lucky to be here, and I'm not planning to believe in an almighty creature who made us out of his waste. I'm feeling comfortable without a believe, I got my own philosophy and do not need to think how to thank my creator. I'll simply do it when I see him 'cause only then i'll believe. For now I enjoy myself.

Btw: raziel: Are you from the netherlands?
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#11208 - 09/04/08 06:09 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Dimitri]
ZephyrGirl Offline
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Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 706
Loc: Adelaide Australia
 Quote:
While I admit I cannot comprehend how anyone can deny the existance of a creator (as it would make our existance on earth seem very very very pointless and make everything on earth from religion to politics to love and procreation an enormus waste of time) it is merely faith and understanding that makes it real to me, and for someone who doesn't believe in a creator, that faith and understanding makes that real to them.


Whilst I agree that without a real creator, religion is somewhat pointless (probably why I am Atheist), procreation is NEVER a waste of time as that is what we are here to do.

Without procreation, there is no 'creation'. I think people who beleive in a 'creator' are just tapping into their sub conscious, but don't like the idea that that's all there is and therefore feel like they are 'wasting their life', because at the end of the day, procreating is the one thing that every living thing's life evolves around.

We may have pushed alot of our natural procreation feelings aside, down or away, but so much of what we do in life is driven by your natural urge to procreate. It all comes back to trying to attract the opposite sex, and procreate.

That one basic drive, drives pretty much all our other drives.

I also think people's egos is what make us think that we are actually 'that' important. Of everything in the universe, God made us in his image? Poohey.

That is not to say that there are powers, states and forces out there influencing us that we don't fully understand (or know of), however, I don't see them as that of a creator, either one you call Satan, God, Thoth or any other name.
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#11210 - 09/04/08 10:04 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: ZephyrGirl]
Raziel LaVey Offline
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Registered: 08/27/08
Posts: 27
 Quote:
Btw: raziel: Are you from the netherlands?


Ah, no. I apologize for the misunderstanding. By "we" I meant "mankind." I am from the states.

 Quote:
procreation is NEVER a waste of time as that is what we are here to do.


Even that becomes a waste of time, for all we do is rape the earth, perpetuating a cancer that carelessly uses up the resources and disrupts the natural balance of the world and kills all mankind... Speaking soley from the point of view of:

There is no God. Everything is manmade. We are here to fuck.

That, to me, is a meaningless existance. Why work? Why love? Why care? Why believe? Why bother? What is ANYTHING for?

Think of all the billions of people and the billions of cultures and the hundreds of faiths and the hundreds of their denominations... They all have one thing in common: They took a vote and decided a God exists. I say billions of people cannot be wrong.

 Quote:
I think people who beleive in a 'creator' are just tapping into their sub conscious


You are right, they are tapping into their subconcious mind. Many view it as the direct link to God's mind.

 Quote:
but don't like the idea that that's all there is and therefore feel like they are 'wasting their life', because at the end of the day, procreating is the one thing that every living thing's life evolves around


Procreating? Even when it comes to procreating there's so many things that immediately stem from that. When you take into account things such as love, why do we love if just to bring new life into the world so it can exist and die? Why all the beauty in life if it's just to fade away?

Nothing is worthless, nothing is meaningless... And procreation can come so cheap it is far from our sole purpose here.


Edited by Raziel LaVey (09/04/08 10:19 PM)

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#11212 - 09/04/08 11:17 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Raziel LaVey]
Fist Moderator Offline
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Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 1453
Loc: B'mo Cautious MF
 Quote:
First, don't get me wrong. I am not standing before you claiming to have THE ANSWER, just MY UNDERSTANDING.


And again, I will ask the question. How do you know your 'understanding' to be correct - even probable? How do you come by this knowledge (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knowledge)?

You are simply advancing an article of faith which will not fly here. You need to support the assertion.
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#11213 - 09/04/08 11:46 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: ZephyrGirl]
napalm Offline
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Registered: 08/21/08
Posts: 61
I personally believe that the face of Baphomet is the face of the creator.If thats true we're not made in the image of god.
We all have to some extent the power of the creator.We,um well most of us,can procreate,so in that sense we have some power of creation.The lack of belief in a creator to me is unfathomable.Its like saying that we fucked ourselves into being.As cool as that sounds I do not believe that to be so.And I'm sure that our way of creation is way more fun than that of the creator. \:D

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#11214 - 09/05/08 03:41 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: napalm]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3151
 Quote:
Think of all the billions of people and the billions of cultures and the hundreds of faiths and the hundreds of their denominations... They all have one thing in common: They took a vote and decided a God exists. I say billions of people cannot be wrong.

Want to bet? I'm very sure billions of people CAN be wrong.
Hundreds of years ago people tought the earth was a flat round disc. In the end millions of them were prooved WRONG when someone managed to sail around the world. And even still there were critics; astronomy prooved them wrong again for good with sattelite photo's.

 Quote:
I personally believe that the face of Baphomet is the face of the creator.If thats true we're not made in the image of god.

Clearify this part napalm.
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#11220 - 09/05/08 06:40 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Dimitri]
ZephyrGirl Offline
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Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 706
Loc: Adelaide Australia
 Quote:
Even that becomes a waste of time, for all we do is rape the earth, perpetuating a cancer that carelessly uses up the resources and disrupts the natural balance of the world and kills all mankind... Speaking soley from the point of view of:

There is no God. Everything is manmade. We are here to fuck.

That, to me, is a meaningless existance. Why work? Why love? Why care? Why believe? Why bother? What is ANYTHING for?




I don't understand what you mean by everything is manmade? Who has said that?

All the meaning I need in my life to do things (work, fuck, love) is to live! You have to work to live! Life is work. No matter how you try to get out of/ around it, you have to work to live and survive. In the olden days that work was more directly just to feed yourself, but you still have to indirectly work to feed yourself and your family. If you stopped working you would soon starve (even begging or living as a freegan is work).

To me, you come across no different than a Christian or new ager that needs to feel special to give their life meaning.

You have replaced the word God with the word Satan, but other than that, it's much of the same.

Another heterical Christian, who thinks that by having 'faith' in something, it must be so.

What ever floats your boat of course, but as Fist said, you need to offer some sort of concrete theory here.

Most on this site (well most of the senior members), believe Satan is an archtype, a product of your mind, not that we are a product of Satan's mind. You believe the complete opposite of what most here do.

We aren't alive for any reason, we just are! Why is grass here? Does grass have to have a reason too? How about the moon and other Suns? We have so many suns, but only one planet in this galaxy at least (until proven otherwise), that has any real life, let alone intelligent life on it?

Why is that. Wouldn't a creator have made all sorts of life all over the place in his image. Why one measly little planet, circling a measly little Sun in a measly little Galaxy? Surely an all powerful creator could have done better than that?

Zeph
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It's about learning to dance in the rain.


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#11232 - 09/05/08 09:35 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Fist]
Raziel LaVey Offline
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Registered: 08/27/08
Posts: 27
 Originally Posted By: Fist
 Quote:
First, don't get me wrong. I am not standing before you claiming to have THE ANSWER, just MY UNDERSTANDING.


And again, I will ask the question. How do you know your 'understanding' to be correct - even probable? How do you come by this knowledge (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knowledge)?

You are simply advancing an article of faith which will not fly here. You need to support the assertion.


No one can. No one can really "prove" God exists, all we can really do is find reasons to believe he does. A reason for me to believe can be explained away by anyone and likewise a reason for you not to believe can be explained away by anyone.

As for probable, everything is probable, even the flying spaghetti monster theory. Faith is everything when it comes to religion.

All anyone has is an understanding, thiestic or not. Athiestic people can't prove God doesn't exist anymore than I can prove he does. I can support an assertion all day long with my understanding, which was reached by practice and introspection.

After all, religion is a deeply personal thing, as is one's relationship with God.


Edited by Raziel LaVey (09/05/08 09:38 PM)

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#11236 - 09/06/08 12:04 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Raziel LaVey]
fakepropht Moderator Offline
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Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 990
Loc: Texas
So in otherwords you are nothing more than a "Satanic Christian". All arguements are faith based or based in some book. What an easy position to take and argue. Since no concrete, tangible proof or facts are needed to prove your statements. Explain them away with "practice and introspection".
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#11237 - 09/06/08 01:16 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: fakepropht]
Octavius Offline
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Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 561
Loc: just visiting
Raziel, learn to think in different ways. The universe without God isn't as lonely as you might think. Challenge yourself to the unbelievable, unthinkable, and impossible. You might just discover that YOU are all that remains...not God. And after all, if you're after a deeply personal relationship, you can't get much more personal than digging within yourself for purpose and potential.

Happy trails,
Octavius
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#11247 - 09/06/08 02:37 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Octavius]
The Zebu Offline
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Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1647
Loc: Orlando, FL
I wouldn't use the term "christian satanist" or "heretical christian"... just a theist who is trying to reconcile himself with faith in a God. And for some people it can be a difficult thing to let go of.

Raziel: Belief in a god isn't as straightforward as one might think. Many cultures have come to the conclusion that there are things like gods and magic, but how much similarity to they share? To say that all cultures believe in different aspects of the same Supreme Deity is naive.

Many cultures have no supreme god at all, just minor elemental deities or spirits. Others are the opposite, with just one supreme One True God (tm). Even more believe that there is a host of equally-powerful gods that rule over the earth. Some believe in a god that is loving, some believe in a god who doesn't care about humanity, some believe in a god that downright hates our guts. Gods are just reflections of the ever-changing thoughts of the society and individual. Nothing more, nothing less.

To a longtime believer (like I once was), a world without a god can be an unfathomably empty one. We want to think there is magic to the world, that there is something more than the asymmetrical mass of atomic chemicals and blank space that makes up the universe. That within our hearts lies an intangible soul, and that one day, when we die, we will all find a blissful eternal life in harmony with God. We tell ourselves these things to make us feel better.

But then you grow up. You realize there are is no Santa Claus coming down the chimney every year to leave you presents, no Jesus up in the sky telling you he loves you, no magical elves hiding behind trees, and no dwarves dwelling underneath mountains. It can be difficult letting go of these kinds of things, but do we really care about them once we get over it?

Things like morality are just abstractions we draw from our animalistic behavior. Do you really need an external deity to validate it? Chimpanzees have social norms and moral customs like every other animal (to varying degrees of sophistication)- and we are animals too. And what's so wrong with that? It's what we do naturally.

Concepts like Love, Beauty, and Art are also nonspiritual things we draw from our natural behavior- but does that make them any less wonderful? Love is essentially an equation of chemicals and sexual drive mixed with some genetic behaviors.... and so what? It doesn't change the effect it has on us in the least. We just understand the reasons why we think so.

All the things we love about life have been doing perfectly fine without a God. We're content with enjoying life as it is.
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#11248 - 09/06/08 06:05 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Raziel LaVey]
Ringmaster Offline
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Registered: 04/07/08
Posts: 205
Loc: Salem Oregon
"All anyone has is an understanding, thiestic or not. Athiestic people can't prove God doesn't exist anymore than I can prove he does. I can support an assertion all day long with my understanding, which was reached by practice and introspection."

Yes you can't prove god exists and I can't prove that he doesn't. However what is understanding? Being able to regurgitate what you read in a book? The same goes with practice, you practice because someone or some book told you to right? When it comes to practice why not do what you want to do? I live life to the standards of the army but that is because I want to get paid, but when I get free time I do what I please because I find that it works for me.

"As for probable, everything is probable, even the flying spaghetti monster theory. Faith is everything when it comes to religion."

Yes but is that faith well placed? I got faith in the sun rising and falling based off of the FACT that is does so every day. Why bother putting faith into something that man decided to write? (shit this brings to mind a part of a song I just heard... "when the bible says worship this by the scriptures written by man though So when man destroys us the word might not stand so till that day I'm just gon protect my fam with ammo") My question to you is are you basing everything on faith? Don't get me wrong some people do need faith because they know of no other way to get through their day. But on the other hand having to much faith in something is just outright self destructive (in my opinion) because a person can believe so much in something he truely knows little about and it could end up being his downfall. Look at TSB yes man wrote this book. But also it has very little to do with faith being that most of the philsophy is based off the observation of man's behavior, and this being something of substance is good enough (for me atleast) to be able to believe that man shall always live by what he desires.
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