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#11252 - 09/06/08 09:04 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: The Zebu]
fakepropht Moderator Offline
Big Slick
active member


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 990
Loc: Texas
Very well stated. I know oneliners are frowned upon here, and being a moderator I should know better, but that's all that needs to be said.
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#11263 - 09/07/08 11:15 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Ringmaster]
Raziel LaVey Offline
stranger


Registered: 08/27/08
Posts: 27
"My question to you is are you basing everything on faith?"

Believe it or not you do too. Since you can't prove or disprove something like God your lack of faith that he does exist is your faith that he doesn't. I am merely the opposite.

You don't accept anything you read in a book unless you believe it. It has little to do with the fact that "I read it somewhere" as much as it does "It makes sense to me."

You can find a book out there "Case for Christ" where they state that the mere number of bibles in print is proof that Christ exists. I don't accept that on the mere basis of what I have learned about Christianity... Many Saints were named after pagan Gods, many practices were originally pagan practices. Christ is a reguritation of other religion's figureheads.

"So in otherwords you are nothing more than a "Satanic Christian".

I never accepted Christ. Thiestic Satanist. Satan is my God. More than an idea. He is very very real to me.

"All arguements are faith based or based in some book. What an easy position to take and argue. Since no concrete, tangible proof or facts are needed to prove your statements. Explain them away with "practice and introspection"."

I told you myself, it is my understanding. What I have learned on my own through the studying and of course my day to day life. Where is your "concrete, tangible proof or facts needed to prove your statements" that he doesn't exist? The only difference between me and you is you don't believe.

"Raziel, learn to think in different ways. The universe without God isn't as lonely as you might think."

Not so much lonely as it is pointless. What's a life lived to know and become God if there is no fucking God? What example is there to emulate? What knowledge is there to gain?

"Challenge yourself to the unbelievable, unthinkable, and impossible. You might just discover that YOU are all that remains...not God."

Of course... but like I said... What would be the point? The only point I could see is to best him, or "exalt your throne above the stars of God." You're only trying to prove something to yourself, that there truly is no other God but you (but even then putting that much energy and time into that sort of made him real...) I do it to become AS Him. To me "Christians" would emulate Christ (rather than bow before him and shit all over themselves begging for his forgiveness), who to me would be the perfect example of a man completely in tune with God. He even went so far as to say he was something of the physical manifestation OF God. Nothing more left-handed than that.

"And after all, if you're after a deeply personal relationship, you can't get much more personal than digging within yourself for purpose and potential."

Yes. And I guess for no other reason than to pass the time before I die and rot.


Edited by Raziel LaVey (09/07/08 11:21 PM)

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#11264 - 09/08/08 12:17 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Raziel LaVey]
Octavius Offline
member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 557
Loc: Left the party
What if YOU are God?
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#11279 - 09/08/08 07:57 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Raziel LaVey]
Ringmaster Offline
member


Registered: 04/07/08
Posts: 205
Loc: Salem Oregon
"Believe it or not you do too. Since you can't prove or disprove something like God your lack of faith that he does exist is your faith that he doesn't. I am merely the opposite."

This is where I find you incorrect in stating that I base everything off faith, my belief is based on the way people interact with each other, and the way people act in general such as instinct. Because I can say from experience that man acts to what he desires and not what some book tells him. You'll find that it is quite easy to tempt a xtain with desire even though he at first refuses with the excuse of "I'm not supposed to do that it is unholy" or blah blah blah. What experience can you base your theistic belief off of has satan spoken with you, offered you a contract for your soul???


"So in otherwords you are nothing more than a "Satanic Christian".

This is so very true.


"I told you myself, it is my understanding. What I have learned on my own through the studying and of course my day to day life. Where is your "concrete, tangible proof or facts needed to prove your statements" that he doesn't exist? The only difference between me and you is you don't believe."

But yet you do not elaborate on your understanding in a sense to where it actually offers credibility to your arguement.


"Yes. And I guess for no other reason than to pass the time before I die and rot."

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't that what we all do after death atleast in a sense to where we can prove? You can dig up any dead person and see them rotting away.
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#11283 - 09/08/08 08:30 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Octavius]
Raziel LaVey Offline
stranger


Registered: 08/27/08
Posts: 27
 Originally Posted By: Octavius
What if YOU are God?


We all are.

 Quote:
This is where I find you incorrect in stating that I base everything off faith, my belief is based on the way people interact with each other, and the way people act in general such as instinct. Because I can say from experience that man acts to what he desires and not what some book tells him.


Not everything, merely the things you cannot prove. With the many many books out there in print, it's safe to say nearly every desire is listed in a book somewhere. What else would man write about if not his desires or passions? I do what I desire, and there are times where what's responsible isn't exactly what I desire but I have to do it anyway. Don't think for a second that my belief Satan is real is compulsion rather than indulgence.

 Quote:
... You'll find that it is quite easy to tempt a xtain with desire even though he at first refuses with the excuse of "I'm not supposed to do that it is unholy" ...


Yeah yeah yeah... I had quite a few Christian girlfriends

 Quote:
... or blah blah blah. What experience can you base your theistic belief off of has satan spoken with you, offered you a contract for your soul???


If you have seen The Secret, it's the Universe (which they explain is synonymous with God) acting in accordance to your will. All my experiences can be explained by that. When you take in account Ritual Magick, it works together with that perfectly. Both faith and practice are at the core of Ritual Magick as well.

You cannot ask me to do what you cannot do yourself adversely.

You must keep in mind it's hard to prove ANYTHING unless you were actually there, and even in that case it comes down to what people want to believe or what they want you to believe.

When it comes to law, sure you have evidence... You have the prosecutors arguing a case for the state and the defense arguing a case for their client before the people who will decide beyond a reasonable doubt for themselves.

Nobody really knows who is right. "Tangible proof" can go either way. My tangible proof rests in the design of all the worlds ecosystems like I stated before with the bears, bugs and fish. Other ones, while they aren't as simple as The Onion article of "Christ categorically denies speaking with Pastor So-and-So" (he sees a cross and has a moment where he spoke to Christ) they are simple moments I interperet as divine intervention.

After all, who really cares? You are free to think he isn't. All I ever said is "I think he is" and all the sudden it's like South Park " *scoff* YOU believe in a higher BEING?! (lol)"

OH MY SCIENCE!

YOUR SCIENCE IS FLAWED! YOU EAT UPON TABLES WHEN YOU HAVE PERFECTLY FINE TUMMIES!


Edited by Raziel LaVey (09/08/08 08:56 AM)

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#13205 - 10/22/08 10:52 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Amina]
BlacKAcRE66 Offline
pledge


Registered: 10/22/08
Posts: 59
Loc: California
 Originally Posted By: Amina
 Originally Posted By: Japster
There seem to be a lot of differences between the satanism potrayed in the Sananic Bible and Tradition Satanism. Which one is the right one if they are different and what makes you say the one is better than the other?


You could try to read a little academic literature on the different forms of Satanism. This could give you a kind of overview of the different kinds and what they stand for. What is the best kind? This is a subjective religious question of the same type as when a Christian try to figure out if catholicism or protestantism is the best faith for him or her. It is not an objective or academic question. As a satanist you are a bit more lucky then the Christian who have between 20.000 and 30.000 different kinds of Christrianity to choose from, because we have fewer kinds of Satanism and because the different kinds of Satanism differ much on very central points. Some forms are atheistic, others theistic and so on. LaVey would be a god place to spart if you want a rationalistic/atheistic kind of Satanism. The ONA would be great if you want to mix a theistic would view with racism and magic (a bit like a mix of the the Christian KKK and Wicca). The Temple of Set if you want to try out a theistic kind of Satanism with an Egyptian flavor and a focus of personal development of the magical kind. You could also try the Satanic Reds if you like eastern kinds of religion, socialism and mixing of all kinds of traditional beliefs.

- Amina


"The Satanic Reds"? That's interesting...Got any reference material? I would like to check them out lol! Please I'm not disrespecting, but I find it amusing that Satanism represents freedom to indulge which is something the former Soviet Union did not exactly encourage. But then again Karl Marx was into "free love", and Russians love their vodka. haha
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#13216 - 10/22/08 11:41 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: BlacKAcRE66]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Don't expect a fancy website: Satanic Reds

Not sure if there is other stuff online.

Although I don't agree with much there, I've always had a soft spot for some of the authors.

D.

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#13227 - 10/22/08 02:27 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Diavolo]
BlacKAcRE66 Offline
pledge


Registered: 10/22/08
Posts: 59
Loc: California
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
Don't expect a fancy website: Satanic Reds

Not sure if there is other stuff online.

Although I don't agree with much there, I've always had a soft spot for some of the authors.

D.


I checked out the Website, and you're right it isn't fancy, its geocities lol! Their page sucks because it just absolutely cluttered with reference material which makes me think it is just a page to praise somebody's book knowledge. Not to say we're not suppose to read and understand what we believe, but those types of pages are just overkill.

Thanks for the info.
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#13344 - 10/23/08 02:15 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: BlacKAcRE66]
BlacKAcRE66 Offline
pledge


Registered: 10/22/08
Posts: 59
Loc: California
Okay, what is LaVeyan Satanism? What is Traditional Satanism?

I don't know if you can really determine what traditional Satanism is...Traditional Satanism can be whatever you conjure up in your imagination which would be sort of like LaVeyan Satanism except LaVeyans have a bible..

Satan did not come into being until after the Jewish Tanakh was written and yet the Book Of Job is the oldest book in the Bible. this predates Moses and records Satan Talking to Adonis which suggest Satan could have been made up by a Chaldean or Babylonian story teller. It is interesting that along with the Ten Commandments came also the definition of evil. Satan is just a name applied to what would be considered chaotic circumstances or repercussions, which LaVeyans might agree with...

Satan, is something that has many forms...It could be the black plague, it could be George W. Bush. But for some who really take the issue seriously it could be Seth, Khali, Zeus, Apollo.

The image of Baphomet as depicted by Eliphas Levi exhibits Thoth as being such an arcane creature with dual attributes Male / Female A male phallus and the breast of a woman. One masculine hand and the other feminine. These represent the polarity values at work in all of us to work noble or ignoble or a balance at work...So Satan could be also Isis,Semiramis,or Diana, Venus, Aphrodite,Virgo. Satanism is dualism. Satan is benevolent and a destroyer at the same time. I consider Levi's depiction to be an accurate testimony.

Now I am coming from a different perspective than LaVey's because if I just wrote what I wrote then I am implying Satan is chaos and therefore you cannot have chaos unless you have two rivals which are the left and right hand path...Satan is Lord of Chaos.

The so called Christian otherwise known as Xian had hijacked the concept of the right hand path and have used it to suppress the true meaning and power of the knowledge by creating metaphors such as the Great White Lodge and the Catholic Church which is the biggest fabricator of ancient mysteries.

To the LaVey people I am not trying to force my belief I am just sharing.




Edited by BlacKAcRE66 (10/23/08 02:34 PM)
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#17251 - 12/31/08 12:11 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Sinistar]
Chey Offline
Banned
stranger


Registered: 12/08/08
Posts: 12
I say that traditional Satanism is better because Satan is my master. LaVeyans only use him as a symbol, but do not believe. But isn't his presence obvious?
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#17256 - 12/31/08 12:29 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Chey]
paolo sette Offline
member


Registered: 12/12/08
Posts: 263
Loc: IL, USA
Well said. Like many of the responses, Satan is the over-Lord, and demands certain responsibilities that are carried out by us. I like the names of Sedit (the Native American Devil), and Tchort (the Russian Devil) with Satan and the Devil. A Buddha that lived long ago is known as being Evil, and goes by the name of Sogamoni Bul. There are many names for Satan that appear throughout time. Even before you had the notion of good versus Evil, you had the interpretation of there being a higher force. The force for our community is Satan, and he is victorious over the catholic god. What a fine time to be living, and witnessing our Lord's winning.

Satan rules supreme.
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#17276 - 12/31/08 02:27 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: paolo sette]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1640
Loc: Orlando, FL
Responsibilities? Where exactly did you get this from? Name at least two groups of people that have historically practiced "traditional Satanism" for the past four centuries.

Besides, "religious responsibilities" and other such pointless dogmas are for the slaves of Yahweh and other reality-denying deities. A Satanist should emulate Satan and not recognize any higher authority than himself.

And it's stupid to equate every single devil-figure in world mythology with Satan, because they share little in common with their "infernal brothers", other than being slandered as the cause of evil or mischief. Satan is enthroned in Satanism because his judeo-christian and occult traits are associated with independent thought, carnality, dark wisdom, rebellion, animalistic existence, et cetera. The other "devils" of the world, on the other hand, are mostly treated as one-dimensional personifications of natural things like storms and plagues, or dimwitted folk-villains to be fooled by loveable rogues of legend.

In this respect, Satan/Lucifer is unique among devils in that he represents something that can be interpreted as positive.


Edited by The Zebu (12/31/08 02:31 AM)
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#17281 - 12/31/08 03:07 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: The Zebu]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3119
 Quote:
Believe it or not you do too. Since you can't prove or disprove something like God your lack of faith that he does exist is your faith that he doesn't. I am merely the opposite.

Actually we can proof god doesn't exist. Only negative point is the plain fact you find the evidence not very credible. That's your opinion. Same goes from your point of view, you may have evidence he exists, but I may find the credibility factor to low.

 Quote:
If you have seen The Secret, it's the Universe (which they explain is synonymous with God) acting in accordance to your will. All my experiences can be explained by that. When you take in account Ritual Magic, it works together with that perfectly. Both faith and practice are at the core of Ritual Magick as well.

If I use god in all my answers I'd be quite dumb right now.
But tell me, since you act like you have "seen" the "secret". What is it? What is this so-called secret? Because actually, I think there is no secret but only your urge to try to feel important like the rest. Let me burst the bubble.. you are unique.. just like the rest of the world.

 Quote:
I say that traditional Satanism is better because Satan is my master. LaVeyans only use him as a symbol, but do not believe. But isn't his presence obvious?

Welcome to the darker of dumbing of the people. I can be your daddy if you want to, I'll give you the respect you have been crying by yelling out "hail Satan".


Edited by Dimitri (12/31/08 03:09 AM)
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#17285 - 12/31/08 03:25 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Dimitri]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1640
Loc: Orlando, FL
re: dimitri

Good ideas, but I just wanted to point out that you're kinda flogging a dead horse at the moment, as the post is old and the OP hasn't posted here since September...
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#17288 - 12/31/08 03:36 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: The Zebu]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3119
 Originally Posted By: The Zebu
re: dimitri

Good ideas, but I just wanted to point out that you're kinda flogging a dead horse at the moment, as the post is old and the OP hasn't posted here since September...

Aww shacks.. that's a pain in the arse.
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