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#19682 - 02/05/09 04:58 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Japster]
Gratikus Offline
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Registered: 05/24/08
Posts: 61
IMO, Traditional Satanist are nut jobs, but I'm not on a crusade to save them or fight them or anything. I don't condone traditional Satanism anymore than I condone Christianity. If some one asked me if it was cool if they practiced Christianity I would say, "Hey, do what you want," but in the back of my head I would be thinking that such a person is a nut job...on some kind of level.

With that said, I also understand that, to a Christian, a LaVeyian Satanist and a Theistic Satanist are basically the same thing. We're all under the influence of the devil, but then anyone who isn't a Christian is under the influence of the devil anyway, so that doesn't say much.

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#19687 - 02/05/09 11:40 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Gratikus]
Mike Offline
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Registered: 09/11/07
Posts: 253
Loc: Farmingdale, NY
 Quote:
IMO, Traditional Satanist are nut jobs


Most people who follow a theistic belief structure are nuts, some more than others. Out of all the theistic philosophies/religions I have looked into, traditional Satanism is the only one I have even the least amount of respect for. It's not just inverted Christianity, nor is it mindless devil worship. There is no "horned god" of the abyss or a big red guy with a pitchfork that tortures the soul after death forever until the end of time. Traditional Satanists see Satan in a completely different light than Christians. The only thing they have in common is that they both base their beliefs on the bible. Traditional Satanists look at the bible from a different point of view, seeing Satan as a liberator and the true savior of humanity who stepped up to the non-all powerful god Jehova. The idea of hell to a traditional Satanist is not a pit of evil with a lake of fire either. It is seen as Satan's kingdom where his faithful will reside with him.

Saying Traditional Satanists are nut jobs is one thing, but they're at least on a somewhat higher level than most Christians in the sense that they have no organization to tell them how to practice their religion. They look at the bible and nothing else, and they are at least smart enough to tell the representation of God in a Christian sense is pure bullshit just by reading their scripture.
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#19691 - 02/05/09 03:29 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Mike]
blsk Offline
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Registered: 09/22/08
Posts: 298
Loc: salem or
Okay, so let me get this strait...they believe that the "god" of the bible is real, that the bible IS the word of "god" and all that, correct? So do they believe that the bible is more propaganda on behalf of the "true gods" agenda? Or do they believe that the bible is true period? If they believe it to be "propaganda" that would make more sense to me but if they think it to be "acurate" then where do they get the idea that "hell" is someplace pleasent?
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#19692 - 02/05/09 04:27 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: blsk]
Mike Offline
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Registered: 09/11/07
Posts: 253
Loc: Farmingdale, NY
 Quote:
Okay, so let me get this strait...they believe that the "god" of the bible is real, that the bible IS the word of "god" and all that, correct?


Correct.

 Quote:
So do they believe that the bible is more propaganda on behalf of the "true gods" agenda? Or do they believe that the bible is true period?


They believe the bible is an actual account of history and look at the stories from a different perspective than Christians in a way that makes Satan seem like he stood up against god due to harsh rule.

 Quote:
If they believe it to be "propaganda" that would make more sense to me but if they think it to be "acurate" then where do they get the idea that "hell" is someplace pleasent?


The idea isn't that hell is a pleasant place. The idea of hell in the bible is the furthest place away from god and the kingdom of Satan. There is no representation of the classic "lake of fire" hell in the bible. This representation didn't come about until I believe the 16th century with the Roman catholic church using it to scare people into going to church. The place of torture representation of hell was also made popular by poems and stories written by various authors of that time period.
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#19694 - 02/05/09 05:46 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Mike]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3887
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Where exactly do you get this idea that hell is a place for Satans faithful? I think you made that up.

I also think your representation of what 'traditional satanists' believe is localized only to you. I have yet to meet two 'traditional satanists' that believe the same thing, much less in your version.

The fact is, 'traditional Satanism' is an ethereal nothing that can only be roughly defined as some sort of literal belief in an actual physical being that may or may not even be named satan.

Either way, it has nothing to do with actual Satanism.
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#19696 - 02/05/09 06:21 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Dan_Dread]
Jake999 Offline
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Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
Years ago there was a group of kids who ended up offing some girl because they believed in some "satanic paradise" that they would go to for sacrificing her where they would be given leadership of 72 legions of Hell, etc. A lot of this kind of thinking became almost encoded in the minds of those who started playing games like Warcraft, etc., where the creatures were based somewhat on the idea that if there is a heaven, there must be an opposite hell... for every angel, there must be a demon.

Soooo, when you look at it in real time (that being the creation of The Church of Rome) you come up with an organization that has a solid core of reality. You can touch the brick and mortar of the churches and you can see the saints and the knights and the legions that fall under the auspices of The Holy See. These mirrored to some degree the Roman Legions (interesting to note that along with the Catholic Church, La Cosa Nostra in Sicily also adopted this organizational structure.) The Catholic Church also adopted the Roman conquest's practice of merging the gods of any new conquered territories with the present Roman pantheon, making the populace easier to control, thus the CURRENT policy of canonizing a new Saint from the prospects of any country in which Catholicism is prominent... but that's neither here nor there.

It's actually a strange type of application of the principle, "As Above, So Below." The idea of a Satanic construct like the Catholic construct isn't feasible on a real time, brick and mortar level... who knows, at some point in time, there could well be an organized religious power on that level, but for present, all that can be provided is a vision of what "might be."

So, in the minds of those who are seeing this concept they call Theistic Satanism as an inversion of Christian mythos, it only makes sense that they would come up with a darker mirror version of what was there for them to copy. Hell is seen as a place of torment... mirror vision... a place of comfort. God is seen as omnipotent... mirror version... Satan rules. Heaven is a reality of life after death... mirror vision... Hell must therefore exist as well. And to them it makes a lot of sense because CHRISTIANS have a "happy place," so then, logic (based on the illogic of myth as reality) SATANISTS must have a "happy place" as well.
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#19697 - 02/05/09 06:48 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Mike]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1646
Loc: Orlando, FL
I have two major problems with what you said.

The idea of hell to a traditional Satanist is not a pit of evil with a lake of fire either. It is seen as Satan's kingdom where his faithful will reside with him

Even in the context of the bible, Hell has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with Satan. According the bible, Hell is not ruled by Satan, but by God. Satan, furthermore, doesn't live in Hell- he resides on Earth. The only thing Satan exercises dominion over is the material world itself, which is why he is called "Rex Mundi" or "King of the World".

The idea of Satan ruling over Hell is a myth made up by misinformed Catholics in the middle ages, who got their bastardized monotheist idealism mixed up with their own European pagan lore.

They look at the bible and nothing else

Wrong again. This was true of primitive Theistic Satanic ideas, but most of them nowadays are so disgusted by any Abrahamic taint that they will cling onto pagan sources like Sumerian religion and the scriptures of the Yezidi, even though they have NOTHING to do with Satanism, despite how many crazy and nonsensical syncretisms they try to make-- to the point where they look sillier than Wiccans.

but they're at least on a somewhat higher level than most Christians in the sense that they have no organization to tell them how to practice their religion.

Not in the least. Modern Christians are mostly excusable because they are raised to believe that all the crazy shit in their religion is true. They don't know better, and most have accepted their religion at face value without evaluating it objectively. Furthermore, Christianity is at least backed by centuries of scripture and tradition.

The vast majority of Theistic Satanists, however, are not indoctrinated, so it takes a special kind of nutjob to take that extra step into a theistic religion that doesn't even have falsified scripture, prophets, or even more than 50 years of "tradition".

And also, most Theistic Satanists are not so independently. Most of them I run across try to redirect me to some crazy organization like the Joy of Satan or the Temple of the Black Light, and adapt their terminology and ideas like parrots.

But there are some "independent" Theistic Satanists. So what is their justification? "Personal experience"... ohhhhhhhh jesus...

Yes, personal experience is a good solid foundation for philosophy and learning your way in the world. But when you're making wild supernatural claims like "There is a supereme god named Father Satan who rules over the kingdom of hell and promises otherworldly rewards to his disciples", you're going to need a fuckload of better proof than just "personal spiritual experience".

Why? Because EVERYONE has their own crazy "spiritual experiences" about Jesus, Allah, Mohammad, Sephiroth (the Final Fantasy character, not the Kabbalistic abstract), and the Flying Spaghetti monster. They don't mean jack shit. When you make giant metaphysical statements of a religious nature, or you feel the supernatural "presence" of some ghost or demon, think for a moment that maybe it might just be ALL IN YOUR HEAD.

And no bullshit about the brain being a gateway to the "astral plane" either. That's only a terrible intellectual copout made up by New Agers who were too scared to admit that their imaginary friends might not actually exist.

So are all Theistic Satanists nutjobs? No. But that vast majority of them are.


Edited by The Zebu (02/05/09 06:52 PM)
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#19699 - 02/05/09 07:43 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Dan_Dread]
Mike Offline
member


Registered: 09/11/07
Posts: 253
Loc: Farmingdale, NY
 Quote:
Where exactly do you get this idea that hell is a place for Satans faithful? I think you made that up.


Back when I used to practice traditional Satanism (which didn't end until a few months ago) I followed the teachings of a group known as the Cathedral of The Black Goat which were gathered together in "The Devil's Bible". This is what I based my beliefs off of. As you stated, you'll never find two self-proclaimed traditional satanists that believe everything the same. It's one way to some and another to others. I wasn't making anything up, I was speaking from my experience and what I knew about the beliefs of the version of traditional Satanism I once followed.
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#19701 - 02/05/09 07:52 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: The Zebu]
Mike Offline
member


Registered: 09/11/07
Posts: 253
Loc: Farmingdale, NY
I agree with you almost 100%. As I said in my last post, I was giving details of the version of traditional Satanism I knew. I didn't say they didn't twist and turn bible stories around per-se, however what I was getting at was that they at least see through the bullshit scattered throughout the bible that would make god look like the hero and Satan look like the enemy (of humanity I mean).

 Quote:
Why? Because EVERYONE has their own crazy "spiritual experiences" about Jesus, Allah, Mohammad, Sephiroth (the Final Fantasy character, not the Kabbalistic abstract), and the Flying Spaghetti monster. They don't mean jack shit. When you make giant metaphysical statements of a religious nature, or you feel the supernatural "presence" of some ghost or demon, think for a moment that maybe it might just be ALL IN YOUR HEAD.

And no bullshit about the brain being a gateway to the "astral plane" either. That's only a terrible intellectual copout made up by New Agers who were too scared to admit that their imaginary friends might not actually exist.

So are all Theistic Satanists nutjobs? No. But that vast majority of them are.


It is all in their head, I agree with you on that, as well as the whole "astral plane" business. It's merely ones imagination going overboard. I once believed I was conversing with demons from a different dimension. Then what happened? My doctor put me on pills, and guess what? The 'demons' disappeared. I'm not saying all theists are crazy and that their spiritual experiences are hallucenations/delusions, I'm stating the fact that it IS all in their head in one way or another. You don't need to be crazy to believe delusions that result from faith, however to have faith for the most part is as you said a little nuts.
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#19703 - 02/05/09 08:14 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Mike]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1646
Loc: Orlando, FL
Cathedral of the Black Goat?!?!? Cheee-rist, that's nearly as reverse-Christian as you can get. Ever checked out Diane Vera's site? At last her ideas mostly make sense.

Edited by The Zebu (02/05/09 08:14 PM)
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#19704 - 02/05/09 08:20 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: The Zebu]
Mike Offline
member


Registered: 09/11/07
Posts: 253
Loc: Farmingdale, NY
I know. Also the most mouthful when it comes to bashing others beliefs. Diane Vera I've heard of, but I've never read anything by her. I really don't feel the need to look into her ideas anyway. As far as I know I'm finished with theism.
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#19714 - 02/05/09 11:23 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: The Zebu]
Gratikus Offline
pledge


Registered: 05/24/08
Posts: 61
 Originally Posted By: The Zebu
Ever checked out Diane Vera's site? At last her ideas mostly make sense.


I met this woman, and her group in person once and let me just say this: People's real life persona is often strikingly different than their online ones. If you ever meet this woman in person, you will see that she is clearly mentally ill.


Edited by Gratikus (02/05/09 11:48 PM)

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#19715 - 02/05/09 11:47 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Gratikus]
Gratikus Offline
pledge


Registered: 05/24/08
Posts: 61
You know, the downside to our religion is that it tends to attract the mentally ill. And I'm telling you, ALL of the mentally ill that are attracted to Satanism gravitate towards Theistic Satanism. The mentally ill are more prone to believing that they see demons and talk to demons, which makes Theistic Satanism fertile ground for them. If I were a Theistic Satanist, I wouldn't know who to trust (if I was around other Theistic Satanist, that is.) That person you're doing a knife ritual with...he could very well be insane, and that knife might end up in a place that you don't want it to be.
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#19722 - 02/06/09 12:43 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Gratikus]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1646
Loc: Orlando, FL
Ah... You do make a valid point, as the crazier the views on superstition get, the crazier the actual person who holds them tend to be. Any mystic/occult area is fertile breeding ground for mentally unhealthy people, especially the "downtrodden" ones like Satanism.

That's a main reason why I'm extremely skeptical about the whole "group ritual/forming a grotto" aspect of Satanism, which is what many people initially gravitate towards because they're looking for group solidity. You don't know who the heck you'd be rounding in, and most of them would be gullible morons anyway.
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#19734 - 02/06/09 03:28 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: The Zebu]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3138
 Quote:
The idea of hell to a traditional Satanist is not a pit of evil with a lake of fire either. It is seen as Satan's kingdom where his faithful will reside with him

Even in the context of the bible, Hell has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with Satan. According the bible, Hell is not ruled by Satan, but by God. Satan, furthermore, doesn't live in Hell- he resides on Earth. The only thing Satan exercises dominion over is the material world itself, which is why he is called "Rex Mundi" or "King of the World".

The idea of Satan ruling over Hell is a myth made up by misinformed Catholics in the middle ages, who got their bastardized monotheist idealism mixed up with their own European pagan lore.

Zebu and mike:
If you know a bible a bit like I do, you should have known it's an overall misinterpretation to say the hell exists. Following the NT Hell will only be created by god on the end of the apocalypse. Normally when people die in christian mythology they tend to go to a sort of world of lost souls. While the good Christians may automatically go to heaven. However due to religious rapture and crave for control this has been changed a bit.

This of course if some of you are traditionally inspired. And that's also one of the mistakes Aquino has made when writing one of his books. At the moment in our modern society, everyone who believes in god or something linked to Christianity has been told Hell exists already, which is absolutely wrong.

 Quote:
You know, the downside to our religion is that it tends to attract the mentally ill. And I'm telling you, ALL of the mentally ill that are attracted to Satanism gravitate towards Theistic Satanism.

Gratikus: you are making a mistake here. In Satanism there are as much mentally ill people as Christianity as in Islam as in other religions. As soon as people start to see demons, gods, angels, Christ, Buddha, Mohammed,... they are mentally ill. If you take a look at the people who claim to have seen Jesus in their refrigerator or else were I'm sure you'll admit it.
Only problem lies within the fact Satanism is tend to be seen as something raw, unbound. Mentally ill people practicing Satanism at overall are counted with the super nut jobs on earth. While Christianity has the "lesser ones" but their quantity is quite huge.
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