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#8636 - 05/13/08 01:15 PM Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism
Japster Offline
lurker


Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 3
Loc: South Africa
I have read the Satanic Bible now and I'm currently reading books of ONA. There seem to be a lot of differences between the Satanism potrayed in the Sananic Bible and Tradition Satanism. Which one is the right one if they are different and what makes you say the one is better than the other?
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#8641 - 05/13/08 05:05 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Japster]
Octavius Offline
member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 557
Loc: Left the party
The right one is the one you decide is right for you after (hopefully) doing a lot of research and rumination. Don't let anyone here tell you what you should or shouldn't believe or follow. Doing so makes you less than human. Always aspire to more. Never become satiated with the knowledge you have.
_________________________
So long, and thanks for all the fish.

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#8644 - 05/13/08 05:48 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Octavius]
gods418 Offline
stranger


Registered: 03/26/08
Posts: 12
traditional Satanism and Satanic Bible: isnt it all refer to satan?????

isnt it the belief and worship of satan????? for me its the same.. you deceide for yourself.

stand bold and erect

SATANIST

we have stand the persecution of catholic christians in the dark ages before we can stand now...
_________________________
3 5 2 BOLDLY STAND ERECT

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#8645 - 05/13/08 06:39 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: gods418]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
"traditional Satanism and Satanic Bible: isnt it all refer to satan?????"

NO, ONE IS LITERALLY, ONE IS METAPHORICALLY.


As Octavais stated, make up your own mind. Decide for yourself. No one can tell you what is your own belifs inside. Do your own research, and follow your own path. Be your own leader, not a follower, aspire to be more.


"we have stand the persecution of catholic christians in the dark ages before we can stand now"

Actually, those were mostly falsely accused witches, jews, and muslims depending on where/when you are talking about. I can see that english is not your primary language.


In order to stand, one must first learn how to crawl.
In other words, one must learn and understand the past before they can stand for a better future.
Then of course, becareful of what you are standing in.......

Morg
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#8663 - 05/14/08 12:40 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Morgan]
Japster Offline
lurker


Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 3
Loc: South Africa
I agree with you guys in saying that I must decide for myself, but as I have no contact with other satanists it becomes difficult to get the material to do proper research. Therefore I asked for someone to explain it to me.
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#8674 - 05/14/08 05:56 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Japster]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
Read the book again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Read the posts about suggested other books to read.

If you dont want to do simple research on your own, well....

You have to take the knowledge, and internalize it.
Then mull it over, see what makes sense to you, then decide what is the next step for your path to knowledge.

If you want to be a folower and just have shit spoonfed to you well, thats another story.....

You have to slowly learn to take all information available and think on your own.

Morg

(Not being sarcastic at all)
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#8709 - 05/15/08 11:31 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Morgan]
PigFeeder Offline
member


Registered: 03/17/08
Posts: 294
Loc: Near Montreal, QC
Japster, one of the greatest things about Satanists and Satanism is the fact that you must seek out your own truth. Satanism has a lot to do with self-realizatio nand seeking out the truth. You must first do the work and research if you wish to gaze upon true knowledge. You cannot expect knowledge to be handed down to you. Delving into history and aincient knowledge, working for the information, that shows true loyalty and true dedication. We won't tell you what you should believe in. You have search it out and then look into an area of which covers and represents your beliefs and morals better than any other.

Good luck to you on your journey of enlightenment.

~~Snow~~.
_________________________
For all murderers, I am the leader.
Forever, Rob, The 49 PigFeeder.
NecroMantic Sin.

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#8722 - 05/16/08 03:28 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Japster]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: Japster
There seem to be a lot of differences between the satanism potrayed in the Sananic Bible and Tradition Satanism. Which one is the right one if they are different and what makes you say the one is better than the other?


You could try to read a little academic literature on the different forms of Satanism. This could give you a kind of overview of the different kinds and what they stand for. What is the best kind? This is a subjective religious question of the same type as when a Christian try to figure out if catholicism or protestantism is the best faith for him or her. It is not an objective or academic question. As a satanist you are a bit more lucky then the Christian who have between 20.000 and 30.000 different kinds of Christrianity to choose from, because we have fewer kinds of Satanism and because the different kinds of Satanism differ much on very central points. Some forms are atheistic, others theistic and so on. LaVey would be a god place to spart if you want a rationalistic/atheistic kind of Satanism. The ONA would be great if you want to mix a theistic would view with racism and magic (a bit like a mix of the the Christian KKK and Wicca). The Temple of Set if you want to try out a theistic kind of Satanism with an Egyptian flavor and a focus of personal development of the magical kind. You could also try the Satanic Reds if you like eastern kinds of religion, socialism and mixing of all kinds of traditional beliefs.

- Amina

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#8725 - 05/16/08 03:47 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Amina]
LUCIFERIFIC Offline
active member


Registered: 02/01/08
Posts: 629
Loc: CA
Go home Amina, save your academic literature for Geraldo. I've enlightened the brother already. He has enough to read. He has already made up his mind. I missed you, have you been chilling on your ice burg... lol... get it? Chill... ice burg... scandinavia lol?

-Kalya @_@


Edited by LUCIFERIFIC (05/16/08 03:59 PM)
_________________________
Lux Ex Tenebris
Lux Lucet Ex Orientis


~~352~~


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#8727 - 05/16/08 04:08 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: LUCIFERIFIC]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: LUCIFERIFIC
Go home Amina, save your academic literature for Geraldo.


Kayla, back off. If you don't want my opinion, don't read what I write. By the way: You are off-topic.


- Amina


Edited by Amina (05/16/08 04:12 PM)
Edit Reason: Adding a few words

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#8736 - 05/17/08 12:26 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: LUCIFERIFIC]
Octavius Offline
member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 557
Loc: Left the party
 Originally Posted By: LUCIFERIFIC
Go home Amina, save your academic literature for Geraldo. I've enlightened the brother already. He has enough to read. He has already made up his mind. I missed you, have you been chilling on your ice burg... lol... get it? Chill... ice burg... scandinavia lol?

-Kalya @_@


You've enlightened the brother already? Well, as long as he got his opinions from someone of your caliber I'm sure he's on the right path...YOURS.

Here's hoping all the newbies aren't as eager to ram their heads up their asses and take your word as law.

"Sell crazy someplace else. We're stocked up here."
_________________________
So long, and thanks for all the fish.

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#8737 - 05/17/08 12:44 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: LUCIFERIFIC]
ZephyrGirl Offline
R.I.P.
active member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 706
Loc: Adelaide Australia
Amina's got alot more to offer this site than your regurgitated crap.

Yes you've enlightened the brother all the way to your WSA site.

Soon you'll have a whole army of two bit hoodlums to take over the world with. Gee you're such an inspiration. LOL

Zeph
_________________________
Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass -
It's about learning to dance in the rain.


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#8738 - 05/17/08 01:19 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: LUCIFERIFIC]
ta2zz Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 1552
Loc: Connecticut

Required reading for brothers and sisters of the WSA...

Such a little manipulator we try to be...

Your basically nothing but an admitted post count whore... Time to move along little one your existence is meaningless to any here...
_________________________
We are the music makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams. ~Arthur William Edgar O'Shaughnessy

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#8740 - 05/17/08 02:08 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: ta2zz]
rob_church Offline
member


Registered: 11/02/07
Posts: 194
Loc: alberta , canada
ha finally i get the 325 (The White Star Acception) to funny now that joke in pm makes me laugh even more kayla..enjoy your army \:\) if some one chooses to follow a master or join a cult. wich the more i read about this wsa that is what im seeing, they deserve what they get and i applaud you for weeding them out..just remember quality over quantity when you have to recruit what do you have? you have followers.but followers don't equate to satanist just cannon fodder so more power to you and your cult:) who hasn't wanted their own private army, good to see your making that happen and to use the followers why not, if they don't follow you they will follow some other person any ways.


good luck girl:)
_________________________
http://www.sintheticgraphics.com

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#8741 - 05/17/08 02:34 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Japster]
Sinistar Offline
member


Registered: 10/07/07
Posts: 174
Loc: New York City
@Japster - Morgan told you to read again already and she used 20 something exclamation points. Please don't come back asking for a spoon-feeding. We put in our own work here. I understand that we were all new once but you need to do your own research. Not many of us know other Satanists in the real world either. A lonely path, indeed. Luciferific tried to help you out and you're not even coming on here to say anything?

@Amina - Not that you need my opinion on anything, but I respect you as a person and I feel that your posts are quite insightful. Welcome back...

@Octavius - You're right. Not one person's opinion on what Satanism is is not the right path by any means. That's the beauty of Satanism. It may take many books to enlighten, it may take none. It will never be one book that does it. That would make us Christians - heretical or otherwise.

Ta2zz - Kayla doesn't need me to defend her but it's unfair to say that she hasn't contributed anything worthy here. As far as post counts go, who really cares about that? I, for one, sure don't and I don't think that she does either even though I'm not going to claim to speak for her.

As far as WSA goes, people who choose to join are grown-ups and can make their own informed decisions. We are, after all, Satanists too. We are just people with common interests getting together, much like all of us do here.
_________________________



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#8743 - 05/17/08 02:56 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: ta2zz]
LUCIFERIFIC Offline
active member


Registered: 02/01/08
Posts: 629
Loc: CA
 Originally Posted By: ta2zz

Your basically nothing but an admitted post count whore...



Said grampa with the second highest posts. LMAO!! God you don't know how long I've waited for you to call me a post whore just so I can say that lol. Is there a carrot in front of you, or did you convince yourself you came into this thread of your own freewill? At least I admit it - and I'll stay top poster to. Its the internet tats. Take the blue pill and wake up. Its just a forum; there is a real word out there more funner. me and you, we're just letters. Like Amina says, if you don't like what I write, ignore it? I don't let none of this stuff get to me. I don't lose any sleep over it; nor does my pulse speed up when I glance over and antiKayla posts...

Now you on the other hand. I worry about your health. You gotta watch that high blood pressure; time don't make you any younger or healthier my nigga, you dig? get over it.

~*~shiosio

PS Thanks Sinistar & Rob.

Kayla


Edited by LUCIFERIFIC (05/17/08 03:05 AM)
_________________________
Lux Ex Tenebris
Lux Lucet Ex Orientis


~~352~~


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#8745 - 05/17/08 03:09 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: rob_church]
Sinistar Offline
member


Registered: 10/07/07
Posts: 174
Loc: New York City
Just had to get your little 2 cents in, ay? Whatever floats your boat, Bobby. I guess it makes some people feel better to jump on a bandwagon. Enjoy the ride. A lot of good that does, though. Take Xamalamadingdong, for example. His ban is longer than his actual time spent over here.
_________________________



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#8746 - 05/17/08 03:19 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Sinistar]
LUCIFERIFIC Offline
active member


Registered: 02/01/08
Posts: 629
Loc: CA
Beside(this isn't directed at you Brother Sin)... you show me one country that strives to raise an army based on the individual unit's intelligence and ability to think for themselves and I'll show you an army that don't work and a country that won't acomplish much in the real world. Intelligence is irrelevant (as far as the foot soldiers are concerned) when the goal is to make money and pull triggers. Its about how well one can follow directives, and what you can do and sacrifice to actualize the end goal. Don't hate on me cuz I'm rolling 14 deep in this joint.

~*~shishio

Kayla


Edited by LUCIFERIFIC (05/17/08 03:23 AM)
_________________________
Lux Ex Tenebris
Lux Lucet Ex Orientis


~~352~~


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#8747 - 05/17/08 03:23 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Sinistar]
Kon Offline
pledge


Registered: 03/21/08
Posts: 86
Loc: Berlin, Germany
cats and kettles...damn we all wear black. What the hell was this thread aboot again? ahhh...
_________________________
A God complex isn't likely to show itself.

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#8754 - 05/17/08 06:10 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Sinistar]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
Thank you to those who welcomed me back.

Regarding the discussion about "satanic sects". I see that some worry about this new WSA group. I don't think people should worry too much. New groups turn up every day and disappear ever day. Do a search on google and you will probably be able to find the first 200 groups. Some claim 20+ members, but most only have less ten five. One should remember that a messageboard and/or a webpage is not a real life group not to mention a sect. The WSA like any other online group do not have much chance of "brain washing" or manipulating anyone. In a loose community as the satanic people drop in and out and only few stay for more then a few months, few meet with other satanists in real life, and few makes Satanism a domination part of there personality and/or life. Those who stay often do so because of the social contact as in any other religious group. I don't know much about the WSA but as far as I know its members found the ONA only a few month ago themselves and they have not been able to make any kind of off-line community or write there own material. Collecting texts and setting up a messageboard can be done in ten min. or so by any 14 year old who can use the internet. Don't worry, be happy - the internet can sustain yet another group for the normal lifespan of a few months you usually see with thise kinds of "messageboard cults". I don't have any problems with the WSA. If I had, I would also have to have a problem at least 50 other groups of the same type not to mention all the groups outside Satanism who are much the same. I have been organizing satanic communities for more then ten years so I know a bit about what it takes, especially if you also have off-line communities involved. All of the competing groups I have experienced have disappeared within a year and most of there members have left Satanism altogether. I am sure that the owner of this group can tell something similar of his experience The&00Club being one of the older online communities by now. How may new groups have been hatched in this community? Quite a few I would guess.

LaVey spoake about satanists acting like gentlemen and ladies. Maybe we could give that a try? These group related fights does not have anything to do with the real world anyway and will be forgotten within weeks or months without haven made any real life changes.

- Amina

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#8755 - 05/17/08 06:22 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Amina]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
Earlier I mentioned "academic literature" on Satanism. It is actually hard to find because Satanism only recently became a recognized field of academic study and because much of what haven been written by non-satanists have been written by journalists or Christians with there own agendas. If anyone wants to give it a try I can recommend these books and texts:

(1999) Jean La Fontaine: ”Satanism and Satanic Mythology”, in "Witchcraft and Magic in Europe: The Twentieth Century", The Athlone Press, London.
(2001) Lewis, James R.: ”Satanism Today”.
(2003) Drury, Nevill: ”Magic and Witchcraft”
(2005) Aagaard, Jesper Petersen: Modern Satanism: Dark Doctrines and Black Flames” in "Controversial New Religions".
(2008) Lewis, James & Petersen, Jesper Aagaard: "The Encyclopedic Sourcebook of Satanism"

You can also find a few texts online. Some of them are linked from this address: http://www.smwane.dk/content/section/10/36/

- Amina

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#8768 - 05/17/08 02:47 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Amina]
rob_church Offline
member


Registered: 11/02/07
Posts: 194
Loc: alberta , canada
ha if by jumping on the bandwagon you mean, saw the words WSA in zephs post,googled it and finally discovered what the hell the 325 stands for. then yes indeed im guilty as charged:)

im not usually up on the forum politics but i vow to you Sinistar, the next secret Internet cult that emerges, i will do my very best to post my thoughts in a more promptly manner on the subject \:\)
_________________________
http://www.sintheticgraphics.com

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#8791 - 05/18/08 03:19 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: rob_church]
Sinistar Offline
member


Registered: 10/07/07
Posts: 174
Loc: New York City
I rest easy knowing that the world is safe again due to that thunderous proclamation, Bobby...
_________________________



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#8792 - 05/18/08 07:09 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Sinistar]
Simon Offline
pledge


Registered: 04/10/08
Posts: 78
This is a discussion I realy think is absolutely meaningless. I have a great deal of contact with the people inside the WSA, and though they teach their own way. It doesn't mean that they are brainwashing people. I personally have gotten some friends in there, but it doesn't mean that I will do everything they tell me to.I use the side, and their techings to learn. I use their teaching to make my self a greater vision of Satanism. So I think it is nice that they teach other people, those smart will not make their picture of Satanism just out from that. They can show us another side of Satanism. Thank you.

Kayla and Ta2zz, it is okay that the both of you have different meanings, and if you need to settle your differences, make yourselves a private topic. But listen to yourselves for a moment, you don't even argue, you just call each other shit, trying to get the upper hand. I don't know Ta2zz, so I don't know how you are in person. But Kayla, I do know you a bit, and you should be smart enought to stop this nonsence.

Anima: Hi, don't think I have met you. Thanks for the book-post^^ Hope I'll see you around more in here.
_________________________
-I am the drinker of worlds-
- Slaanesh

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#8794 - 05/18/08 12:28 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Amina]
Kon Offline
pledge


Registered: 03/21/08
Posts: 86
Loc: Berlin, Germany
 Originally Posted By: Amina


LaVey spoake about satanists acting like gentlemen and ladies. Maybe we could give that a try? These group related fights does not have anything to do with the real world anyway and will be forgotten within weeks or months without haven made any real life changes.

- Amina


LaVey spoke about a lot of things, when he wasn't saying gentlemen and ladies he was calling them animals, humanization, blahahaha.


Welcome back by the way Amina.
_________________________
A God complex isn't likely to show itself.

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#8795 - 05/18/08 12:35 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Simon]
LUCIFERIFIC Offline
active member


Registered: 02/01/08
Posts: 629
Loc: CA
 Originally Posted By: Simon
But Kayla, I do know you a bit, and you should be smart enought to stop this nonsence.


This is true. I am smart \:\) I'm gunna take your advice, Amina's, & Japie's and leave this joint. It was fun.

This account is ready to be terminated.


Edited by LUCIFERIFIC (05/18/08 12:35 PM)
_________________________
Lux Ex Tenebris
Lux Lucet Ex Orientis


~~352~~


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#8797 - 05/18/08 04:13 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: LUCIFERIFIC]
PigFeeder Offline
member


Registered: 03/17/08
Posts: 294
Loc: Near Montreal, QC
I know this is off-topic but you realize if you leave, you're just another smuck who gave into a little bit of cyber-presssure and are loudly and clearly saying you are actually not as smart and are letting random people's opinions get to you.

Not very wise.

Maybe you should reconsider but of course, it is entirely up to you.

I once considered you a good friend, but I learnt more of some people here. I can't judge you based on what other people have said but I've realised that I haven't learnt enough about you to care. If those big long, intellectual posts are indeed yours. Then your opinions will be missed. If they were merely products of the Ctrl+C and V, then I'm sure we could do without, as someone else will surely take over that role.

Either way, take care and may your journey to self-enlightnment be a vast one filled with eternal knowledge.

~~Snow~~.
_________________________
For all murderers, I am the leader.
Forever, Rob, The 49 PigFeeder.
NecroMantic Sin.

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#8799 - 05/18/08 04:58 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Kon]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
Thank you for the welcome.

 Originally Posted By: Kon
LaVey spoke about a lot of things, when he wasn't saying gentlemen and ladies he was calling them animals, humanization, blahahaha.


Yes, LaVey wrote a lot of stuff, and some of it is more or less inconsistent or contradictory (or down right useless). But on this point, I think he was rather clear (and made good sense). Yes, humans are animals, and our darker sides are always very close to the surface. These darker sides can be dangerous, but they are also very valued. Our animal brothers and sisters are not as hypercritical or lying as we are and that makes them natural magicians with clear emotions and a strong will. But to make society work man need not only instincts but also criminal law, customs and good manners. One can agree or disagree - for my part I like a civilized tone.

- Amina

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#8800 - 05/18/08 05:30 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: LUCIFERIFIC]
Kon Offline
pledge


Registered: 03/21/08
Posts: 86
Loc: Berlin, Germany
Why leave Kayla? Some comments made in spite of you, that's just it. You are a very intelligent poster, and I admire your tact. I don't think anyone here really dislikes you (could be wrong). Everyone will get critiqued or talked bad about @ one time or another,

SHEEIT my first thread got deleted, bwahaha! well, nice knowing you K.

Piece out dude!
_________________________
A God complex isn't likely to show itself.

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#8801 - 05/18/08 05:40 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Amina]
Kon Offline
pledge


Registered: 03/21/08
Posts: 86
Loc: Berlin, Germany
Amina:


Oh I don't know, sometimes a ravening pack of salivating wolves is just the kind of glorified imagery that may attract a strong intelligent leader.

Anyhow, everyone has buttons to push babe. Some are easier to get at than others. There is usually a limit.

Though I agree, enough bickering and complaints for me too, it's getting stuffy and serious in here, I think LaVey is correct when saying we should act as gents and ladies, though calling them animals is perhaps just push.

LaVey was a smart man, and I admire his work, I said "blahahaha" not in disrespect but irony.
_________________________
A God complex isn't likely to show itself.

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#8804 - 05/18/08 09:25 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Kon]
VictorGrigorii Offline
stranger


Registered: 05/16/08
Posts: 28
Loc: Sarasota, FL
What a lot of people who ask this question forget to consider is that the term "traditional Satanism" presupposes the question "according to WHOSE tradition?"
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#8808 - 05/18/08 11:13 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: LUCIFERIFIC]
Sinistar Offline
member


Registered: 10/07/07
Posts: 174
Loc: New York City
Oh please, Japster told you that you should leave? Mr "Mommy, can you read me the Satanic Bible again before I go nite, nite"? The guy just walked into the 600 Club like an hour ago. He's in no position to advise you on anything when he himself needs advice on when to take a piss!

If you leave, leave on your own accord. You are too intelligent to listen to morons. Too much intelligence has been lost here: Dev Samael Daval, Tornado Creator, and potentially you. Replacing the intelligence are psuedo-intellectuals seeking pissing contests.
_________________________



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#8809 - 05/19/08 12:10 AM Re: off topic [Re: LUCIFERIFIC]
ta2zz Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 1552
Loc: Connecticut

 Originally Posted By: LUCIFERIFIC
Said grampa with the second highest posts. LMAO!! God you don't know how long I've waited for you to call me a post whore just so I can say that lol.

Wow I am the second highest poster I had no idea… How long have you waited watching the post counts fearing I may pull ahead of you? Or were you waiting to try to challenge my post count to have a new purpose? Remember this?

“I was going to leave this site because it was getting boring because i collected most of what i needed for our school project. Then i just got into the posting game. To be honest I was originally competing with DaVinci for the most post. It's stupid; then he went, and i worked on beating TornadoCreator... then you two chased him away... and i was left just sitting here not knowing why I was really here. ” ~ LUCIFERIFIC

 Originally Posted By: LUCIFERIFIC
you show me one country that strives to raise an army based on the individual unit's intelligence and ability to think for themselves and I'll show you an army that don't work and a country that won't acomplish much in the real world. Intelligence is irrelevant (as far as the foot soldiers are concerned) when the goal is to make money and pull triggers.

So you are calling those that follow you idiots… Do they all know your thoughts of them?

Hmmmm trigger men, niggas, and gang signs… Funny little gang you have…

 Originally Posted By: LUCIFERIFIC
Don't hate on me cuz I'm rolling 14 deep in this joint.

A few good acquaintances and a good friend is better than 14 what did you basically call them unintelligent moneymaking trigger pullers?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 Originally Posted By: Sinistar
As far as post counts go, who really cares about that? I, for one, sure don't and I don't think that she does either even though I'm not going to claim to speak for her.

Then do not… She has already spoken for herself…

I do appreciate you not talking @ me well done sir…

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 Originally Posted By: Simon
Kayla and Ta2zz, it is okay that the both of you have different meanings, and if you need to settle your differences, make yourselves a private topic. But listen to yourselves for a moment, you don't even argue, you just call each other shit, trying to get the upper hand.

This is what she strives for it gives her a purpose…

“Those were the days... don't forget Amina. I even tried to end our hatred for each other and tried to make friends with her, but she doesn't come around. Oh yeah; Dev Sam is back, I was going to tell you. I wrote him a letter welcoming him back. I told him we should start fighting agian out in the forums for old time's sake; but he said he'll have to decline the invitation, because he is only here for messaging people. ~ LUCIFERIFIC

Add hypocrite to post whore… Unless trying to flame Amina was Kayla’s way of ending her own projected hatred…

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 Originally Posted By: Simon
I don't know Ta2zz, so I don't know how you are in person. But Kayla, I do know you a bit, and you should be smart enought to stop this nonsence.

You do not know shit boy… Only what has been fed to you…

 Originally Posted By: Simon
But Kayla, I do know you a bit, and you should be smart enought to stop this nonsence.

Smart enough to call her followers idiots right in front of them without them being aware of the fact…

It is amazing how blind people get as long as they feel accepted or respected…

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 Originally Posted By: LUCIFERIFIC
This is true. I am smart \:\) I'm gunna take your advice, Amina's, & Japie's and leave this joint. It was fun.

Wait before you leave what was your grade on your 352 project for school? Oh you did tell them all this was simply an experiment no? Or were you still running it trying to use people because you are nothing but a vampire as explained in your own words in the thread I linked to a few posts back ?

By the way my blood pressure is fine no need to worry… Does yours rise as your transparency is revealed?

Have a nice day

~T~

Shout out a big Baaaaaa to the 352


Edited by ta2zz (05/19/08 12:19 AM)
_________________________
We are the music makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams. ~Arthur William Edgar O'Shaughnessy

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#8810 - 05/19/08 12:16 AM Re: off topic [Re: Sinistar]
ta2zz Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 1552
Loc: Connecticut

Those that make a large play of leaving seem to never go... She has been leaving due to lack of a purpose for over a month now...

~T~


Edited by ta2zz (05/19/08 12:19 AM)
_________________________
We are the music makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams. ~Arthur William Edgar O'Shaughnessy

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#8816 - 05/19/08 08:53 AM Re: off topic [Re: ta2zz]
PigFeeder Offline
member


Registered: 03/17/08
Posts: 294
Loc: Near Montreal, QC
Dang ta2zz we don't usually get along but well done. I must say you do your homework. I have to agree I also saw some of the things here you pointed out but didn't call them out. Like calling her followers idiots and claiming herself a post whore and then contradicting herself.

Victor; very good point made. When I hear the term Trad Satanism I automatically think of the elden general concept of Trad Satanism. To me that is what makes sense. Not a few random people who made up a type of Satanism in the old days. For it to be Trad I think it has to be a gernalized idea that has been around long enough everyone knows of it [Everyone who knows the topic]. But good point all the same. Something to think about. This however, is all just my opinion.



~~Snow~~.
_________________________
For all murderers, I am the leader.
Forever, Rob, The 49 PigFeeder.
NecroMantic Sin.

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#8820 - 05/19/08 10:46 AM Re: off topic [Re: ta2zz]
Simon Offline
pledge


Registered: 04/10/08
Posts: 78
Just to get this straight Ta2zz. I don't know about the other ones, but at least "I" can tell you that I dont follow any clan. I am a member of the soon rising "cult of Khaine", that is true. But we dont believe in one leader, or anyone doing the thinking for us. That would be to ignore our own exitense.

Kayla may have been a quick recruiter. But I use the things she thought me as a piece of the puzzle. I would never take all information from one place, that is ignoring the falsehood of man. I often see your points too, you are a smart man. Kayla often tell something, then at the instace says the opposite. I think you thought the same about me when I called you an "assnibbler". If you were from Norway you would have understood what I meant, we have some weird formalities, but enought about that.

Ta2zz, if the weakminded wants to follow her, then let them do. That would leave the stronger here. I don't know if I can call myself one of the strong satanist, at least not in your eyes^^. The real satanist would never want to follow behind somebody, they would rather try to take the lead for them selves. Making the cooperation between satanist hard.

About the "cult of Khaine". As I think you most likely would reply to this. It is not a cult in that matter. We cooperate having someone finding jobs for us, while others do them, the money are split, evenly. So that there will no internal struggles.

Well, that was the last from me for now, see you around^^^.
_________________________
-I am the drinker of worlds-
- Slaanesh

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#8823 - 05/19/08 12:33 PM Re: off topic [Re: ta2zz]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
I didn't see the original post you are quoting, but just for the record:

[quote=ta2zz]“Those were the days... don't forget Amina. I even tried to end our hatred for each other and tried to make friends with her, but she doesn't come around LUCIFERIFIC

I don't agree nor decline anything. I just ignored some weird ramblings about how she envisioned me being like the geeks at her school. Not being able to identify with it I just ignored the whole thing, witch wasn't too hard me being away from the board at the time.

- Amina

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#8825 - 05/19/08 03:42 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: VictorGrigorii]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: VictorGrigorii
What a lot of people who ask this question forget to consider is that the term "traditional satanism" presupposes the question "according to WHOSE tradition?"


I agree.

When you read stuff by ONA, The Satanic Reds or Christians you could come to believe that there is something called traditional Satanism dating back to the middel ages, the time before Christianity or the fall of Lucifer. Everyone can believe what ever they want to believe, but "traditional Satanism" is hard to come by if you take an objective view on history.

The "traditional Satanism" envisioned by the ONA is as fake and nonexistent as the Wicca history inspired by Margaret Murray or the claims made by Christians.

The "traditional Satanism" envisioned by The Satanic Reds is a mix of different tradition THEY identify as satanic. This is more or less New Age religion with a dark flavor. It can also be compared with LaVeys use of different traditions in The Satanic Rituals with one important difference: LaVey states that the satanists can play with traditions KNOWING that they are fairytales to be used as the satanist see fit.

The Christian view of "traditional Satanism" can be examined by looking at the old witchhunts. Yes, the Christians believed in witches and satanists, but that didn't make them more real then the Aliens or unicorns some people believe in today. A few people enacted what the Christians believed, but that doesn't make it into a living tradition.

Bottom line: No kind of Satanism is much older then the 60'ties, but all kinds of Satanism claim to build on tradition. Even LaVey claim this when trying to identify satanic personalities, occult groups or pagan religions of the past.

My view? People who talk of "traditional Satanism" should find some academic books and read up on European history and/or The New Age movement and modern witchcraft and occultism. The claim of secret traditions is much the same in all groups, and non of them agrees well with real history.

Bottom line: if you think you have to choose between "traditional Satanism" and LaVeyan Satanism, and is not just using the term "traditional Satanism" because everyone else does when talking about the Christian vision of Satanism, but because you think it is a real Satanism dating back before the 60'ties, then you have been taken in by stories, or you are already part of the religion of "traditional Satanism" by believing in the religious and non-historical beliefs in a history of traditional Satanism.

- Amina

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#8827 - 05/19/08 03:48 PM Re: off topic [Re: Simon]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: Simon
We cooperate having someone finding jobs for us, while others do them, the money are split, evenly. So that there will no internal struggles.


Just out of curiosity: have any of you earned and split any money yet? How do you go about finding jobs? As fare as I know you live in different parts of the world. How do you split money? It is usually a pain in the ass if you have to transfer money, and the cost of transferring money to X people around the globe would soon enough eat up any money earned?

- Amina

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#8828 - 05/19/08 04:16 PM Re: off topic [Re: Amina]
Simon Offline
pledge


Registered: 04/10/08
Posts: 78
That is true, but we all are in Norway. Though some swedish satanist came up with the idea. They didn't manage to look after it all. So we just did it ourselves.^^

By "us" I mean the members, there seem to be alot of us. But there are many jobs too though.


Edited by Simon (05/19/08 04:22 PM)
_________________________
-I am the drinker of worlds-
- Slaanesh

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#8829 - 05/19/08 04:49 PM Re: off topic [Re: Simon]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: Simon
By "us" I mean the members, there seem to be alot of us. But there are many jobs too though.


But have you shared anything yet, and what are your views on freeloaders? And what about taxes and stuff? If I shared my money with a group of unknown I could end up paying more in taxes then I get, and as a student, a homeowner, a home tenant, a mother and so on I would get punished for earning more (more taxes or less money from the state) without actually having the money if I shared it . It is a nice idea seen from a communistic point of view, but I am not sure if I see how it could work in a real life, unless all the involved are very rich or kids living with there parents. So I guess I'm still curious about how it is done and if you have tried it for real yet.

- Amina


Edited by Amina (05/19/08 04:50 PM)
Edit Reason: spelling errors

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#8830 - 05/19/08 05:01 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Japster]
Fist Moderator Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 1453
Loc: B'mo Cautious MF
Modern Satanism is known mostly from the works of Anton LaVey and the fact that you can find TSB in most any book store. What brought ONA to your attention? Why did you feel the need to actively pursue ONA material?
_________________________
I am the Devil and I am here to do the Devil's work.

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#8831 - 05/19/08 05:03 PM Re: off topic [Re: Amina]
Simon Offline
pledge


Registered: 04/10/08
Posts: 78
The job we do are often somewhat "illegal" therefore all paying are under the table... Not that it bothers me, I pay my taxes on my real job. Though I don't work much.
_________________________
-I am the drinker of worlds-
- Slaanesh

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#8834 - 05/19/08 10:16 PM Re: back off topic [Re: Fist]
ta2zz Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 1552
Loc: Connecticut

Japster is WSA or 352... WSA reading materials are simply old ONA writings and The Satanic Bible...

The 352 as explained to me by Kayla,

"It started off as a school project on anthropology. We were studying about memes. So we thought we'd conduct an experiment on the propagation of memes in a Test Community.

We created our own cluster of memes and picked this forum and opened this account. The basic object is to infect. Thats it.

We are basically looking for 5 things:

1) Who gets infected by our memes; and why? What kind of personality traits do they have, their beliefs, strong points, and weaknesses. Why aren't they immune?

2) Who resists infection; how and why? What are their personality traits, their beliefs, strong points, and weakness. Describe there defense mechanism.

3) As with any community which has become aware that a contagion has infected a portion of its population, at what point will the Test Community enter this phase of "Alarm."

4) How does the test community react to the epidemic. How do they rationalize it to themselves and each other. Can they and do they build up an immunity.

5) You brain is like a biological computer, and memes are the biological software. Is the propagation of memes via the internet capable of producing real world effects. Meaning once people have installed this software, do they act as programmed, accordingly?

This is it. I see we're in the alarm stage. How did you personally notice something was going on?" ~ LUCIFERIFIC


She told me and others this same story and further went on to tell me they were getting a grade on it... But her story and purpose seems to change like the wind... At one point she admitted in the public area of the forum that she was multiple people...

Now the real laugh was her asking me how did I notice something was wrong when the reply I posted here was to this question...

What is this Manson family thing you are growing "the 352"? ~ta2zz

She/ he/ they are not the sharpest tacks in the drawer... So no worries to any that this 352 is troubling me I find it quite amusing how many were hooked with a simple brother or sister we accept you mentality...

Is it information or disinformation who knows what would you believe from WSA Whorebag aka LUCIFERIFIC?

I see a vampire nothing less...

~T~
_________________________
We are the music makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams. ~Arthur William Edgar O'Shaughnessy

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#8838 - 05/20/08 02:04 AM Re: back off topic [Re: ta2zz]
Bacchae Offline
Satan's White Trash Neighbor
member


Registered: 05/13/08
Posts: 438
Loc: los angeles
i smell make-believe. in a few of the posters.
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#8858 - 05/20/08 08:41 PM Re: back off topic [Re: ta2zz]
Fist Moderator Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 1453
Loc: B'mo Cautious MF
Wow, what a poorly designed rambling project.

So, if I got this right, Lucferific's science experiment has blossomed into a full blown web-church?

The question is, are all WSA/352er here all the same person or group of people trying to finish their homework?
_________________________
I am the Devil and I am here to do the Devil's work.

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#8869 - 05/21/08 06:09 AM Re: back off topic [Re: ta2zz]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: ta2zz
[color:#FFCCCC]"It started off as a school project on anthropology. We were studying about memes. So we thought we'd conduct an experiment on the propagation of memes in a Test Community.


I don't know what kind of school that is, but I think it sounds strange. I studied psychology at the university for 1½ year to be able to teach psychology together with my main field of history/sociology of religion. We had a professor mentioning memes one time in a class on social psychology, but it was explained as a theory that used to be popular in the general public, but was gone more or less out of use by then because of a lot of flaws. Another strange thing with the school project explanation is that I am very surprised that a school would allow and even give credit for a project like that. Projects involving other people, especially young people, need to be evaluated on ethics. Maybe Kayla study at the Josef Mengele school or something like that, who knows, but it sounds strange.

- Amina

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#8879 - 05/21/08 08:14 PM Re: back off topic [Re: Amina]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
From what I understand, she attends a christian/catholic type college.

That should explain it, and raise a few laughs.
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#8891 - 05/22/08 09:11 AM Re: back off topic [Re: Morgan]
PigFeeder Offline
member


Registered: 03/17/08
Posts: 294
Loc: Near Montreal, QC
I've only heard about this but thought it random ramblings.. You're kidding me right? Miss Luciferific Satanist believing in magics and such is a Catholic school girl.. DIsgusting..

From what I gather Fist it's just gullable kitten's herded together like sheep. I don't think it's the same person. But hey, you never know...

AKA "People gullable and ignorant enough to do what someone who accepts them, tells them to do. People who can be easily herded together. " - Luciferific -

So basically 352 is a cattle brand. Any of you have a nice hot iron.. Yeehaaa!


~~Snow~~.
_________________________
For all murderers, I am the leader.
Forever, Rob, The 49 PigFeeder.
NecroMantic Sin.

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#8924 - 05/23/08 05:59 AM Re: off topic [Re: Simon]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: Simon
The job we do are often somewhat "illegal" therefore all paying are under the table... Not that it bothers me, I pay my taxes on my real job. Though I don't work much.


Simon, I am sorry to say this, but I think you are lying or have been had by someone else. You state in your profile that you are 18 years old, but I have seen other profiles that I think belongs to you, and in those you say you are only 16 years old. At 16 I don't think you should be part of a group involved in illegal work, not even if it is just a scam. I also find a a bit worrying that you speak about illegal stuff in public. It is not as hard to get to know peoples real identities as you probably think.

- Amina

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#8925 - 05/23/08 06:12 AM Re: off topic [Re: Simon]
Sinistar Offline
member


Registered: 10/07/07
Posts: 174
Loc: New York City
You're a good kid and you try. I don't mean "kid" as a slight in anyway to you, Simon. Amina's right, you don't want to end up like your so-called brother, Japster, do you?

Responsibility to the responsible, Simon. Don't let things get out of hand.
_________________________



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#8936 - 05/23/08 12:40 PM Re: off topic [Re: Sinistar]
Simon Offline
pledge


Registered: 04/10/08
Posts: 78
The age thing has an easy reason. Many have told me to lie about my age, so I would be "out" of trouble. As you can see though, it hasn't exactly worked.

That about the illegal stuff, it too has an easy explanation. "I now I will get alot of post on this one"

As a child, child services took me away from my mom. So when I grew up, I got the typical "dropout" branded in my forehead. So when I got a bit older I desided to be like people expected me to. I couldn't dissapoint them in their expectations now, could I.

As for the buiness itself, we transport things for people. Smugling for instance is one of the most popular. I am counted as one of them, though I haven't done any jobs myself yet. SO illegal yes, but if we weren't doing it, someone else would.

I apreceate your concern, my I ask why you asked?
_________________________
-I am the drinker of worlds-
- Slaanesh

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#8937 - 05/23/08 01:32 PM Re: off topic [Re: Simon]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: Simon
The age thing has an easy reason. Many have told me to lie about my age, so I would be "out" of trouble. As you can see though, it hasn't exactly worked.


My experience is that lying about ones age is not a good idea - at least not when one is young. I am 30, but I don't think anyone would give it a second look if I tried to pull it off as being 28 or 32. Laying about an age difference of two years when you are 16 is another matter: much happen in those years, and in most cases young people who lie about age will just be seen as an unmature 18 year old when they are actually mature and serious 16-year olds. I know and respect a lot of young satanists under the age of 18, and I am sure a lot of other older satanists do too.

 Originally Posted By: Simon
As a child, child services took me away from my mom. So when I grew up, I got the typical "dropout" branded in my forehead.[quote=Simon]

I am not going to tell you that I know anything about how that feels, but I have a friend who experienced something similar who I tried to help get back on her feet. I know it is tough and that most with that kind of background don't succeed. But hey - you are adopting a philosophy of personal responsibility. Unless you joined Satanism because you thought it would add to a identity as a looser you are on the right track!

[quote=Simon]As for the buiness itself, we transport things for people. Smugling for instance is one of the most popular. I am counted as one of them, though I haven't done any jobs myself yet. SO illegal yes, but if we weren't doing it, someone else would.


I have read some of the rapports on Danish people who have been into care as children, as part of a project I worked on in psychology. I would think that Denmark and Norway are much similar in this regard. It is not very surprising that you are in the wrong company, or that you are thinking about doing something illegal, but seen from a satanic point of view this is very selvdestruktiv. You will need no enemies with that kind of friend, and your worst enemy will be yourself. If you want to think of yourself as a satanist, you will also have to accept the point of view that YOU are responsible for your own life. Don't keep friends who drag you down. Dont act in ways that will make it even harder to succeed. If you want to work with other satanists, find more suited mentors and friends.

 Originally Posted By: Simon
I apreceate your concern, my I ask why you asked?


I deal with a lot of young satanists in Denmark and I don't like selvdestructive satanists. It is bad for the people involved and it is also bad for the image of Satanism (ignore the American satanists on this point and try to look into how it is in Norway and Denmark) . If people want to fuck up there lives I would rather see them end up as fucked up Christians. You don't want to be yet another stereotype fucked up satanic teen. The only people who has any sympathy for that are Christians who view sawing satanists as a way to look even more saintly. I am sorry if I am a bit hard on you, but it should be seen as actually trying to care.

- Amina

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#9109 - 05/27/08 05:11 PM Re: off topic [Re: Amina]
SATANAS Offline
stranger


Registered: 05/17/08
Posts: 32
Loc: ANCHORAGE - ALASKA
i am a lavayen satanist - in wich i beilieve if you are a real true satanist you are born that way - that dosnt mean you are a desciple from right out of the womb - but that you aquire your gifts along the way
_________________________
hail satanas

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#9145 - 05/28/08 04:52 AM Re: off topic [Re: SATANAS]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
LaVey viewed all animals and all children below the age of four as natural magicians and satanist, but he also stated that not all people are created even, and that all successful people live by the satanic philosophy, even if they don't identify as satanists, and that a real witch can be identified by her success in real life (her ability to find a good mate and a good job etc.). To make a long story short: Yes, everyone are born satanists, and everyone can claim to be a satanist. To be an unsuccessful satanist is worse then being a successful Christian or even an unsuccessful Christian. To be a satanist and KNOW how to succeed without doing so is a sign of not even trying.

- Amina

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#9667 - 06/17/08 10:10 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Japster]
999 Offline
stranger


Registered: 06/07/08
Posts: 8
Loc: alabama
I dont concider myself traditional, for i dont belive satan is a deity,but a force/energy that thru meditation can be feelt and used for magical intent.but i also follow what levy wrote.just an oppinion do what your heart fills is right.
_________________________
better to die on my feet than live on my knee's

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#10091 - 07/05/08 03:33 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: 999]
Simon Offline
pledge


Registered: 04/10/08
Posts: 78
I don't believe much in the magic part of Satanism, only the part concerning sigils. But again, that's me. On the other hand i like philosofy, and I like the dicotomy between god and evil. I don't have much else to say, bye.
_________________________
-I am the drinker of worlds-
- Slaanesh

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#10105 - 07/06/08 08:51 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Simon]
Happy Birthday SevenDeadlySins Offline
stranger


Registered: 01/15/08
Posts: 41
Loc: chicago illinois
i think one should be able to choose their own path when it comes to Satanism . i care less what anyone else chooses for themselves and to be honest , find it funny how people on here are so self righteous on whats "right" . lol i think its the people so concerned on being correct that loose the point of being a satanist . LAUGH i say . if someone needs help or guidance give advice but arguing about whats right makes us out to be the same shit as xtians . HA HA HA

i just laugh . make me smile !
_________________________
Your Punishment Begins

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#10141 - 07/09/08 03:51 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: SevenDeadlySins]
Xande Offline
stranger


Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 24
Loc: Arlington, TX, USA
I'll concede the point that Satanism is a glorification of the individual, and that by the nature of that statement the obvious conclusion is that no path is exclusive. Satanism is in the throes of evolution, and any individual or organization claiming the exclusivity of its values is a looter, building a cheap sense of empowerment at the express consent of those unfortunate few who desperately need an outlet to assume their true nature: the sycophant.

Anton LaVey codified Satanism as an organized religion, and as such is a central figure in Satanism whether you choose to acknowledge it or not. Before Anton's blend of psychodrama and objectivism came to define Satanism and grant it the status of a living, cohesive movement, all that existed in my personal opinion were inverted christians who invoked the name of Satan due to the discontentment and misfortunes experienced under the careful watch of their benevolent god.

While I think the worship of any deity is a foolhardy practice, I still have to give credit where credit is due. I cannot sanction the actions undertaken by these individuals, but I can commend their desire to reject the established order and poison the hermetic chain with thoughts contrary to the status quo. It was that very spirit of independence that lay in wait, resonating underneath the superficial pageantry of society for someone to utilize it. LaVey simply beat similarly minded persons to the proverbial punch. He did make the statement, and I paraphrase, "If Satanism didn't exist, someone else would have created it, probably less qualified."

I believe that statement to be quite true, as the exaltation of carnal principles and reason had driven our species without celebration for seemingly endless ages and needed to be recognized as inviolate truths. Philosophers had long since waxed quite eloquently about these qualities, but truth presented in the guise of philosophy will seldom have the same impact as truth codified into a religion.

I realize that schism is an unavoidable mechanism, due to the notion that in order to be right, another has to be wrong: it's the watermark of dualist thinking. Personally, I think that there are certain absolutes we all share, and truths considered to be inviolate exist beyond dualist concepts. Regardless of our differences, we should learn to harness our similarities and try and benefit from each other through intelligent debate. What's the worst that can happen? Personal evolution?
_________________________
“Faith” is acceptance induced by feeling in the absence of evidence or proof.

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#10143 - 07/09/08 07:10 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Xande]
blackrose Offline
stranger


Registered: 07/06/08
Posts: 6
I feel one is either born a Satanist or not; Satanism is something a person was born with. And we Satanists must take full responsibility for all that we say and do. As for whether a person feels they have the calling as either a Levayan or traditional Satanist, that is totally up to the individual; you have to decide that for yourself.
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#11154 - 09/01/08 11:33 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Sinistar]
Raziel LaVey Offline
stranger


Registered: 08/27/08
Posts: 27
I am a firm believer that there is a Creator, and Satan is the best suited figurehead for the role. God is a title, my God is Satan.

After that, you are free to recognize him however you wish. I am very into collecting as many books as you can on the subject and apply what makes sense to your life.

Religion, to me, is a tool to focus beliefs, principles and practices. LaVeyan is thought of as Athiestic as in Satan is simply an idea we emulate whereas Traditional is thought of as Satan is your God.

Is he your God or an idea? There is no right or wrong, beliefs are part of your character. If you think he is an idea, you are right. If he is real and he is your God, you are right. You are free to express your beliefs however you wish just so long as you aren't cramming them down anyone else's throat. All that is important is you practice what you preach (it all comes back to character).

We are no one to tell anyone they are wrong.

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#11171 - 09/02/08 09:05 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Xande]
Happy Birthday SevenDeadlySins Offline
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Registered: 01/15/08
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Well said .
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#11177 - 09/03/08 07:06 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: SevenDeadlySins]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3117
What makes you believe there is a creator?
I prefer to call it a "force". I mean, it sounds so unlogical to me that there was already a being who was thinking to himself "let me create something".
A force is more neutral and you can give different names to it.
Some like to call it Satan, others Seth, other ones Allah or God and so on.
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#11179 - 09/03/08 10:18 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Dimitri]
Raziel LaVey Offline
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Registered: 08/27/08
Posts: 27
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
What makes you believe there is a creator?
I prefer to call it a "force". I mean, it sounds so unlogical to me that there was already a being who was thinking to himself "let me create something".
A force is more neutral and you can give different names to it.
Some like to call it Satan, others Seth, other ones Allah or God and so on.


One thing I learned is everything is created twice. Just as the keyboard you type on and the monitor which displays this very page was once a thought in the mind of man, we are thoughts in the mind of God. To put it even more simply, I view God as a big mind and we are all thoughts in the mind of God. To create, all one has to do is think, or imagine. To create again, simply follow through.

Once I was watching this show on Animal Planet about these bears, and these bears lived on a river. That river had this natural life-cycle. The cycle went as followed:

The bears feed on the fish that swim in the river. The fish lay eggs down the river, and there's these bugs that fly up the river to lay their eggs. After they lay their eggs they die, fall into the water and flow downstream just as these fish hatch and they eat the dead bugs.

A system far to intelligent in design (to me) to be left in the hands of mere chance. God is a "force" just as you say, a great force of balance. His will is merely common sense and personal responsibility.


Edited by Raziel LaVey (09/03/08 10:19 AM)

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#11181 - 09/03/08 02:40 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Raziel LaVey]
The Zebu Offline
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Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1640
Loc: Orlando, FL
I have two answers for this.

I believe in a bythos that I give the name Azoth (the monad, as labeled by Crowley). This is what I would describe as "the ultimate cosmic god" or the supreme force of both creation and destruction. However, I believe this force is not necessarily sentient, nor is it anthropomorphic (or anthropocentric for that matter)- and nor is it personal in any way. It doesn't "care" about inhumanity, just as a human doesn't care about a tiny fleck of dust resting under a table. I can't say for sure whether or not this force is supernatural, but it wouldn't matter in either case.

I would say that Satan/Lucifer is one of my "personal gods" but certainly not a supernatural force so much as the "dark force in nature and psychology" that LaVeyan Satanists identify with. As Satan is a symbol that exists within humanity, the same could possibly be said about other "gods".

In my opinion it doesn't make sense to equate the Monad/Cosmic God with any kind of minor human-dependent deity like Yahweh or Satan. But if you think Satan is the creator of the universe or something, go right ahead, more power to ya. Just don't expect everyone to worship him.

But I must say that one thing that bothers me particularly is when Theistic or Spiritual Satanists say that atheists or symbolists cannot be "true Satanists". In their view, Satan is a supernatural god, so if other people do not believe this tenet, they cannot be real satanists. But in my view, Satan is clearly observable as a human symbol- the main difference is that Theistic Satanists attribute this to a supernatural origin and atheistic Satanists to a natural one. What difference does it make, then, as to where we believe this force comes as long as we both exalt it as our religion?

The truth of a religion should not have to rest on supernatural assumptions- stripped of such, you should at least be able to have a solid core of philosophy that can be applied to the real world. Otherwise you would just have meaningless superstitions.

I don't care if people believe in the supernatural or not. If it gives their life meaning, good for them, so long as they give themselves sufficient reality checks every so often to make sure they're not blowing other people (or themselves) up over myths.
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#11182 - 09/03/08 04:06 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Raziel LaVey]
ta2zz Offline
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Loc: Connecticut

 Originally Posted By: Raziel LaVey
A system far to intelligent in design (to me) to be left in the hands of mere chance. God is a "force" just as you say, a great force of balance. His will is merely common sense and personal responsibility.

So you believe in intelligent design? Who in your mind is God responsible to, where is his commonsense... How do you attribute such human concepts to something that would be so immensely beyond human comprehension...

~T~

To cast doubt on intelligent design I submit the eyeball for examination...
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#11183 - 09/03/08 04:13 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: ta2zz]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3117
 Quote:
So you believe in intelligent design? Who in your mind is God responsible to, where is his commonsense... How do you attribute such human concepts to something that would be so immensely beyond human comprehension...

I also would like to add on your question Ta2zz: Where did he get the matter to create it all? I don't know if someone noticed but the universe is fucking huge... Even our solar system is enormous and then to think how much tons of matter there is within...
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#11184 - 09/03/08 04:14 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: The Zebu]
ta2zz Offline
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I am Satan I am God... The ability to be Satan or God lies in every human being that has ever lived... After all religion is nothing but a human construct to cope with fear for the the unexplainable and unavoidable... Such as night and day to primitive man, and death...

My demons reside fully in my own head...

~T~
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#11185 - 09/03/08 04:28 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Dimitri]
ta2zz Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
I also would like to add on your question Ta2zz: Where did he get the matter to create it all? I don't know if someone noticed but the universe is fucking huge... Even our solar system is enormous and then to think how much tons of matter there is within...

Perhaps god scratched his balls and all the matter we know of is just his flaked off dried out funk…

Here are a couple of posts dealing with the size of the known universe and the probability of unintelligent life prevailing over intelligent in the as of yet unexplored universe…

Look at the size of that thing!!!

Unintelligent life is likely on other planets

Enjoy…

~T~
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#11187 - 09/03/08 04:33 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: ta2zz]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3117
 Quote:
Perhaps god scratched his balls and all the matter we know of is just his flaked off dried out funk…

I was thinking the same thing actually it seems like the only reasonable response I could find...

I'm going to check out these links, altough I am quite sure there must be some life anywere in the universe, looks quite impossible we are alone here..
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#11190 - 09/03/08 08:45 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: ta2zz]
Raziel LaVey Offline
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Registered: 08/27/08
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God isn't responsible to anyone, we are responsible to ourselves.

Common sense? Responsibility, integrity, character. Simple things that lend toward one's credibility.

We can only understand God to the degree in which we understand ourselves and the world, which is where science comes in. Science has never went against religion in the past. Science was thought to help man understand God's design... God's mind. We attribute human concepts to something 'so immensely beyond human comprehension' because he made us in his image, as Gods ourselves... So we naturally create him in our image to better understand something we long to comprehend, which brings me to my personal understanding.

I view life as a journey towards knowing God, aligning ourselves with him, becoming as him.

Gods are immortal men, and men are mortal gods.

How would that cast doubt on intelligent design? The eyeball is an incredible piece of work

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#11191 - 09/03/08 08:50 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Dimitri]
Raziel LaVey Offline
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Registered: 08/27/08
Posts: 27
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
 Quote:
So you believe in intelligent design? Who in your mind is God responsible to, where is his commonsense... How do you attribute such human concepts to something that would be so immensely beyond human comprehension...

I also would like to add on your question Ta2zz: Where did he get the matter to create it all? I don't know if someone noticed but the universe is fucking huge... Even our solar system is enormous and then to think how much tons of matter there is within...


Heh. I somewhat answered this before you asked it. God is one big mind. The universe and all things within it are thoughts in the mind of God. In fact, from what I understand about dark matter and dark energy... That could be him. It keeps the planets and the stars and all things in balance.

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#11192 - 09/04/08 02:37 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Raziel LaVey]
Dimitri Offline
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Hmmm, answer doesn't fit for me. If we are toughts we could have been easily vanquished thousands of years ago. Also what to do with the dinosaurs? I can't believe we are a product of some "being" who keeps on fantasising.

I don't know what you think but about what you are talking about to me looks like inversed christianity.
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#11193 - 09/04/08 05:31 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Raziel LaVey]
MaggotFaceMoe Offline
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Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 164
Loc: Finland
What do you mean by saying science has never went against religion in the past? What is the past and when does present begin in your mind? Do you think Darwin was just trying to present God's designs in a more comprehensible way so that fellow men can better understand his magnificent mind?
It may be that I've missed something but I don't recall when a scientist was studying nature just to, in your words, trying to "help man understand God's design... God's mind".

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#11194 - 09/04/08 05:41 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: MaggotFaceMoe]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
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MFM; It is true that science never went against religion..
Religion on the other hand did so.
Like I'm having a discussion at the moment with "christians" (I call them idiots because I even know their religion more than they do..) about that the earth is round and has always been written in the bible it was round. Trying to convince them they believed the earth was flat but round in shape and not spheric.
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#11195 - 09/04/08 06:52 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Raziel LaVey]
Fist Moderator Offline
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 Quote:
The universe and all things within it are thoughts in the mind of God.


How did you come by this knowledge? How is it that you understand the true nature of god?

Please explain....
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#11196 - 09/04/08 10:03 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Fist]
Raziel LaVey Offline
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Registered: 08/27/08
Posts: 27
 Quote:
Just don't expect everyone to worship him.


Oh, I don't. Our individual freedom is granted by Him. Who am I to deny anyone of that right?

 Quote:
But I must say that one thing that bothers me particularly is when Theistic or Spiritual Satanists say that atheists or symbolists cannot be "true Satanists".


What is a True Satanist? While I admit I cannot comprehend how anyone can deny the existance of a creator (as it would make our existance on earth seem very very very pointless and make everything on earth from religion to politics to love and procreation an enormus waste of time) it is merely faith and understanding that makes it real to me, and for someone who doesn't believe in a creator, that faith and understanding makes that real to them.

 Quote:
In their view, Satan is a supernatural god, so if other people do not believe this tenet, they cannot be real satanists. But in my view, Satan is clearly observable as a human symbol- the main difference is that Theistic Satanists attribute this to a supernatural origin and atheistic Satanists to a natural one. What difference does it make, then, as to where we believe this force comes as long as we both exalt it as our religion?


A hypocrisy in my eyes, "real satanists." I thought one of the big things we disagreed with in Xtianity was fundamentalism.

 Quote:
The truth of a religion should not have to rest on supernatural assumptions- stripped of such, you should at least be able to have a solid core of philosophy that can be applied to the real world. Otherwise you would just have meaningless superstitions.


Supernatural things, such as ghosts, magick and the like are all the domain of the right mind. The right mind is artistic, the dreaming mind. Philosophy is of the left. You cannot apply to the right mind the principles of the left. All you will have is, as you say, meaningless superstitions. On the other hand, faith and belief makes it just as real. It's the role ritual plays in our religion... Reinforcement of faith... Experiencing Satan. No logic can explain what we experience in the "Intellectual Decompression Chamber", all we have are ideas and theories which can be applied, all of which are supported by faith and belief (LaVey DOES speak of faith and the power of magick, and to say that the difference between Satanists and White Lighters are that Satanists engage in ritual understanding we are "practicing a form of contrived ignorance" makes ritual seem pointless) .

 Quote:
How did you come by this knowledge? How is it that you understand the true nature of god?


First, don't get me wrong. I am not standing before you claiming to have THE ANSWER, just MY UNDERSTANDING.

Have you ever read the Hermetica?
http://www.amazon.com/Hermetica-Lost-Wis...20536433&sr=8-2?

First, The Hermetica is the teaching of Hermes, who was the Greek equivilent to the Egyptian Thoth, who as we know was the God of Magick and the Architect of the pyramids (which are aligned with fixed stars in the sky viewed as heaven).

The Hermetica explains creation. We are all created in the image of God, granted the divine gift of mind. Think about it... We can change the topography of the earth, we can create our own lakes, islands... We understand the animals to such a degree we can create the perfect environment for them ANYWHERE WE WANT (just like the rainforest zoo we created in the netherlands) because we understood the nature of his creations, we understood his thoughts and his mind.

Just as you can picture a world in your head... You know the rest.


Edited by Raziel LaVey (09/04/08 10:24 AM)

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#11197 - 09/04/08 10:06 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Dimitri]
Raziel LaVey Offline
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Registered: 08/27/08
Posts: 27
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
Hmmm, answer doesn't fit for me. If we are toughts we could have been easily vanquished thousands of years ago. Also what to do with the dinosaurs? I can't believe we are a product of some "being" who keeps on fantasising.

I don't know what you think but about what you are talking about to me looks like inversed christianity.


Seeing how many of these views existed before Christianity, I view Christianity as an inversion of everything I believe.

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#11198 - 09/04/08 11:53 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Raziel LaVey]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3117
 Quote:
While I admit I cannot comprehend how anyone can deny the existance of a creator (as it would make our existance on earth seem very very very pointless and make everything on earth from religion to politics to love and procreation an enormus waste of time) it is merely faith and understanding that makes it real to me, and for someone who doesn't believe in a creator, that faith and understanding makes that real to them.

Our existance is almost pointless I'm quite sure about that.
The only thing is; because it is pointless you can't enjoy it.
We were just lucky to be here, and I'm not planning to believe in an almighty creature who made us out of his waste. I'm feeling comfortable without a believe, I got my own philosophy and do not need to think how to thank my creator. I'll simply do it when I see him 'cause only then i'll believe. For now I enjoy myself.

Btw: raziel: Are you from the netherlands?
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#11208 - 09/04/08 06:09 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Dimitri]
ZephyrGirl Offline
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Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 706
Loc: Adelaide Australia
 Quote:
While I admit I cannot comprehend how anyone can deny the existance of a creator (as it would make our existance on earth seem very very very pointless and make everything on earth from religion to politics to love and procreation an enormus waste of time) it is merely faith and understanding that makes it real to me, and for someone who doesn't believe in a creator, that faith and understanding makes that real to them.


Whilst I agree that without a real creator, religion is somewhat pointless (probably why I am Atheist), procreation is NEVER a waste of time as that is what we are here to do.

Without procreation, there is no 'creation'. I think people who beleive in a 'creator' are just tapping into their sub conscious, but don't like the idea that that's all there is and therefore feel like they are 'wasting their life', because at the end of the day, procreating is the one thing that every living thing's life evolves around.

We may have pushed alot of our natural procreation feelings aside, down or away, but so much of what we do in life is driven by your natural urge to procreate. It all comes back to trying to attract the opposite sex, and procreate.

That one basic drive, drives pretty much all our other drives.

I also think people's egos is what make us think that we are actually 'that' important. Of everything in the universe, God made us in his image? Poohey.

That is not to say that there are powers, states and forces out there influencing us that we don't fully understand (or know of), however, I don't see them as that of a creator, either one you call Satan, God, Thoth or any other name.
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It's about learning to dance in the rain.


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#11210 - 09/04/08 10:04 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: ZephyrGirl]
Raziel LaVey Offline
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Registered: 08/27/08
Posts: 27
 Quote:
Btw: raziel: Are you from the netherlands?


Ah, no. I apologize for the misunderstanding. By "we" I meant "mankind." I am from the states.

 Quote:
procreation is NEVER a waste of time as that is what we are here to do.


Even that becomes a waste of time, for all we do is rape the earth, perpetuating a cancer that carelessly uses up the resources and disrupts the natural balance of the world and kills all mankind... Speaking soley from the point of view of:

There is no God. Everything is manmade. We are here to fuck.

That, to me, is a meaningless existance. Why work? Why love? Why care? Why believe? Why bother? What is ANYTHING for?

Think of all the billions of people and the billions of cultures and the hundreds of faiths and the hundreds of their denominations... They all have one thing in common: They took a vote and decided a God exists. I say billions of people cannot be wrong.

 Quote:
I think people who beleive in a 'creator' are just tapping into their sub conscious


You are right, they are tapping into their subconcious mind. Many view it as the direct link to God's mind.

 Quote:
but don't like the idea that that's all there is and therefore feel like they are 'wasting their life', because at the end of the day, procreating is the one thing that every living thing's life evolves around


Procreating? Even when it comes to procreating there's so many things that immediately stem from that. When you take into account things such as love, why do we love if just to bring new life into the world so it can exist and die? Why all the beauty in life if it's just to fade away?

Nothing is worthless, nothing is meaningless... And procreation can come so cheap it is far from our sole purpose here.


Edited by Raziel LaVey (09/04/08 10:19 PM)

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#11212 - 09/04/08 11:17 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Raziel LaVey]
Fist Moderator Offline
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Registered: 08/31/07
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 Quote:
First, don't get me wrong. I am not standing before you claiming to have THE ANSWER, just MY UNDERSTANDING.


And again, I will ask the question. How do you know your 'understanding' to be correct - even probable? How do you come by this knowledge (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knowledge)?

You are simply advancing an article of faith which will not fly here. You need to support the assertion.
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#11213 - 09/04/08 11:46 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: ZephyrGirl]
napalm Offline
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Registered: 08/21/08
Posts: 61
I personally believe that the face of Baphomet is the face of the creator.If thats true we're not made in the image of god.
We all have to some extent the power of the creator.We,um well most of us,can procreate,so in that sense we have some power of creation.The lack of belief in a creator to me is unfathomable.Its like saying that we fucked ourselves into being.As cool as that sounds I do not believe that to be so.And I'm sure that our way of creation is way more fun than that of the creator. \:D

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#11214 - 09/05/08 03:41 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: napalm]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3117
 Quote:
Think of all the billions of people and the billions of cultures and the hundreds of faiths and the hundreds of their denominations... They all have one thing in common: They took a vote and decided a God exists. I say billions of people cannot be wrong.

Want to bet? I'm very sure billions of people CAN be wrong.
Hundreds of years ago people tought the earth was a flat round disc. In the end millions of them were prooved WRONG when someone managed to sail around the world. And even still there were critics; astronomy prooved them wrong again for good with sattelite photo's.

 Quote:
I personally believe that the face of Baphomet is the face of the creator.If thats true we're not made in the image of god.

Clearify this part napalm.
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#11220 - 09/05/08 06:40 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Dimitri]
ZephyrGirl Offline
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Registered: 08/28/07
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Loc: Adelaide Australia
 Quote:
Even that becomes a waste of time, for all we do is rape the earth, perpetuating a cancer that carelessly uses up the resources and disrupts the natural balance of the world and kills all mankind... Speaking soley from the point of view of:

There is no God. Everything is manmade. We are here to fuck.

That, to me, is a meaningless existance. Why work? Why love? Why care? Why believe? Why bother? What is ANYTHING for?




I don't understand what you mean by everything is manmade? Who has said that?

All the meaning I need in my life to do things (work, fuck, love) is to live! You have to work to live! Life is work. No matter how you try to get out of/ around it, you have to work to live and survive. In the olden days that work was more directly just to feed yourself, but you still have to indirectly work to feed yourself and your family. If you stopped working you would soon starve (even begging or living as a freegan is work).

To me, you come across no different than a Christian or new ager that needs to feel special to give their life meaning.

You have replaced the word God with the word Satan, but other than that, it's much of the same.

Another heterical Christian, who thinks that by having 'faith' in something, it must be so.

What ever floats your boat of course, but as Fist said, you need to offer some sort of concrete theory here.

Most on this site (well most of the senior members), believe Satan is an archtype, a product of your mind, not that we are a product of Satan's mind. You believe the complete opposite of what most here do.

We aren't alive for any reason, we just are! Why is grass here? Does grass have to have a reason too? How about the moon and other Suns? We have so many suns, but only one planet in this galaxy at least (until proven otherwise), that has any real life, let alone intelligent life on it?

Why is that. Wouldn't a creator have made all sorts of life all over the place in his image. Why one measly little planet, circling a measly little Sun in a measly little Galaxy? Surely an all powerful creator could have done better than that?

Zeph
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#11232 - 09/05/08 09:35 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Fist]
Raziel LaVey Offline
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Registered: 08/27/08
Posts: 27
 Originally Posted By: Fist
 Quote:
First, don't get me wrong. I am not standing before you claiming to have THE ANSWER, just MY UNDERSTANDING.


And again, I will ask the question. How do you know your 'understanding' to be correct - even probable? How do you come by this knowledge (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knowledge)?

You are simply advancing an article of faith which will not fly here. You need to support the assertion.


No one can. No one can really "prove" God exists, all we can really do is find reasons to believe he does. A reason for me to believe can be explained away by anyone and likewise a reason for you not to believe can be explained away by anyone.

As for probable, everything is probable, even the flying spaghetti monster theory. Faith is everything when it comes to religion.

All anyone has is an understanding, thiestic or not. Athiestic people can't prove God doesn't exist anymore than I can prove he does. I can support an assertion all day long with my understanding, which was reached by practice and introspection.

After all, religion is a deeply personal thing, as is one's relationship with God.


Edited by Raziel LaVey (09/05/08 09:38 PM)

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#11236 - 09/06/08 12:04 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Raziel LaVey]
fakepropht Moderator Offline
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Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 990
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So in otherwords you are nothing more than a "Satanic Christian". All arguements are faith based or based in some book. What an easy position to take and argue. Since no concrete, tangible proof or facts are needed to prove your statements. Explain them away with "practice and introspection".
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#11237 - 09/06/08 01:16 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: fakepropht]
Octavius Offline
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Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 557
Loc: Left the party
Raziel, learn to think in different ways. The universe without God isn't as lonely as you might think. Challenge yourself to the unbelievable, unthinkable, and impossible. You might just discover that YOU are all that remains...not God. And after all, if you're after a deeply personal relationship, you can't get much more personal than digging within yourself for purpose and potential.

Happy trails,
Octavius
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#11247 - 09/06/08 02:37 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Octavius]
The Zebu Offline
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Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1640
Loc: Orlando, FL
I wouldn't use the term "christian satanist" or "heretical christian"... just a theist who is trying to reconcile himself with faith in a God. And for some people it can be a difficult thing to let go of.

Raziel: Belief in a god isn't as straightforward as one might think. Many cultures have come to the conclusion that there are things like gods and magic, but how much similarity to they share? To say that all cultures believe in different aspects of the same Supreme Deity is naive.

Many cultures have no supreme god at all, just minor elemental deities or spirits. Others are the opposite, with just one supreme One True God (tm). Even more believe that there is a host of equally-powerful gods that rule over the earth. Some believe in a god that is loving, some believe in a god who doesn't care about humanity, some believe in a god that downright hates our guts. Gods are just reflections of the ever-changing thoughts of the society and individual. Nothing more, nothing less.

To a longtime believer (like I once was), a world without a god can be an unfathomably empty one. We want to think there is magic to the world, that there is something more than the asymmetrical mass of atomic chemicals and blank space that makes up the universe. That within our hearts lies an intangible soul, and that one day, when we die, we will all find a blissful eternal life in harmony with God. We tell ourselves these things to make us feel better.

But then you grow up. You realize there are is no Santa Claus coming down the chimney every year to leave you presents, no Jesus up in the sky telling you he loves you, no magical elves hiding behind trees, and no dwarves dwelling underneath mountains. It can be difficult letting go of these kinds of things, but do we really care about them once we get over it?

Things like morality are just abstractions we draw from our animalistic behavior. Do you really need an external deity to validate it? Chimpanzees have social norms and moral customs like every other animal (to varying degrees of sophistication)- and we are animals too. And what's so wrong with that? It's what we do naturally.

Concepts like Love, Beauty, and Art are also nonspiritual things we draw from our natural behavior- but does that make them any less wonderful? Love is essentially an equation of chemicals and sexual drive mixed with some genetic behaviors.... and so what? It doesn't change the effect it has on us in the least. We just understand the reasons why we think so.

All the things we love about life have been doing perfectly fine without a God. We're content with enjoying life as it is.
_________________________
«Recibe, ¡oh Lucifer! la sangre de esta víctima que sacrifico en tu honor.»

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#11248 - 09/06/08 06:05 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Raziel LaVey]
Ringmaster Offline
member


Registered: 04/07/08
Posts: 205
Loc: Salem Oregon
"All anyone has is an understanding, thiestic or not. Athiestic people can't prove God doesn't exist anymore than I can prove he does. I can support an assertion all day long with my understanding, which was reached by practice and introspection."

Yes you can't prove god exists and I can't prove that he doesn't. However what is understanding? Being able to regurgitate what you read in a book? The same goes with practice, you practice because someone or some book told you to right? When it comes to practice why not do what you want to do? I live life to the standards of the army but that is because I want to get paid, but when I get free time I do what I please because I find that it works for me.

"As for probable, everything is probable, even the flying spaghetti monster theory. Faith is everything when it comes to religion."

Yes but is that faith well placed? I got faith in the sun rising and falling based off of the FACT that is does so every day. Why bother putting faith into something that man decided to write? (shit this brings to mind a part of a song I just heard... "when the bible says worship this by the scriptures written by man though So when man destroys us the word might not stand so till that day I'm just gon protect my fam with ammo") My question to you is are you basing everything on faith? Don't get me wrong some people do need faith because they know of no other way to get through their day. But on the other hand having to much faith in something is just outright self destructive (in my opinion) because a person can believe so much in something he truely knows little about and it could end up being his downfall. Look at TSB yes man wrote this book. But also it has very little to do with faith being that most of the philsophy is based off the observation of man's behavior, and this being something of substance is good enough (for me atleast) to be able to believe that man shall always live by what he desires.
_________________________
Get off the cross and save yourself, I feel no pity for the cries of a weak man.

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#11252 - 09/06/08 09:04 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: The Zebu]
fakepropht Moderator Offline
Big Slick
active member


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 990
Loc: Texas
Very well stated. I know oneliners are frowned upon here, and being a moderator I should know better, but that's all that needs to be said.
_________________________
Beer, the reason I get up every afternoon.

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#11263 - 09/07/08 11:15 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Ringmaster]
Raziel LaVey Offline
stranger


Registered: 08/27/08
Posts: 27
"My question to you is are you basing everything on faith?"

Believe it or not you do too. Since you can't prove or disprove something like God your lack of faith that he does exist is your faith that he doesn't. I am merely the opposite.

You don't accept anything you read in a book unless you believe it. It has little to do with the fact that "I read it somewhere" as much as it does "It makes sense to me."

You can find a book out there "Case for Christ" where they state that the mere number of bibles in print is proof that Christ exists. I don't accept that on the mere basis of what I have learned about Christianity... Many Saints were named after pagan Gods, many practices were originally pagan practices. Christ is a reguritation of other religion's figureheads.

"So in otherwords you are nothing more than a "Satanic Christian".

I never accepted Christ. Thiestic Satanist. Satan is my God. More than an idea. He is very very real to me.

"All arguements are faith based or based in some book. What an easy position to take and argue. Since no concrete, tangible proof or facts are needed to prove your statements. Explain them away with "practice and introspection"."

I told you myself, it is my understanding. What I have learned on my own through the studying and of course my day to day life. Where is your "concrete, tangible proof or facts needed to prove your statements" that he doesn't exist? The only difference between me and you is you don't believe.

"Raziel, learn to think in different ways. The universe without God isn't as lonely as you might think."

Not so much lonely as it is pointless. What's a life lived to know and become God if there is no fucking God? What example is there to emulate? What knowledge is there to gain?

"Challenge yourself to the unbelievable, unthinkable, and impossible. You might just discover that YOU are all that remains...not God."

Of course... but like I said... What would be the point? The only point I could see is to best him, or "exalt your throne above the stars of God." You're only trying to prove something to yourself, that there truly is no other God but you (but even then putting that much energy and time into that sort of made him real...) I do it to become AS Him. To me "Christians" would emulate Christ (rather than bow before him and shit all over themselves begging for his forgiveness), who to me would be the perfect example of a man completely in tune with God. He even went so far as to say he was something of the physical manifestation OF God. Nothing more left-handed than that.

"And after all, if you're after a deeply personal relationship, you can't get much more personal than digging within yourself for purpose and potential."

Yes. And I guess for no other reason than to pass the time before I die and rot.


Edited by Raziel LaVey (09/07/08 11:21 PM)

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#11264 - 09/08/08 12:17 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Raziel LaVey]
Octavius Offline
member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 557
Loc: Left the party
What if YOU are God?
_________________________
So long, and thanks for all the fish.

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#11279 - 09/08/08 07:57 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Raziel LaVey]
Ringmaster Offline
member


Registered: 04/07/08
Posts: 205
Loc: Salem Oregon
"Believe it or not you do too. Since you can't prove or disprove something like God your lack of faith that he does exist is your faith that he doesn't. I am merely the opposite."

This is where I find you incorrect in stating that I base everything off faith, my belief is based on the way people interact with each other, and the way people act in general such as instinct. Because I can say from experience that man acts to what he desires and not what some book tells him. You'll find that it is quite easy to tempt a xtain with desire even though he at first refuses with the excuse of "I'm not supposed to do that it is unholy" or blah blah blah. What experience can you base your theistic belief off of has satan spoken with you, offered you a contract for your soul???


"So in otherwords you are nothing more than a "Satanic Christian".

This is so very true.


"I told you myself, it is my understanding. What I have learned on my own through the studying and of course my day to day life. Where is your "concrete, tangible proof or facts needed to prove your statements" that he doesn't exist? The only difference between me and you is you don't believe."

But yet you do not elaborate on your understanding in a sense to where it actually offers credibility to your arguement.


"Yes. And I guess for no other reason than to pass the time before I die and rot."

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't that what we all do after death atleast in a sense to where we can prove? You can dig up any dead person and see them rotting away.
_________________________
Get off the cross and save yourself, I feel no pity for the cries of a weak man.

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#11283 - 09/08/08 08:30 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Octavius]
Raziel LaVey Offline
stranger


Registered: 08/27/08
Posts: 27
 Originally Posted By: Octavius
What if YOU are God?


We all are.

 Quote:
This is where I find you incorrect in stating that I base everything off faith, my belief is based on the way people interact with each other, and the way people act in general such as instinct. Because I can say from experience that man acts to what he desires and not what some book tells him.


Not everything, merely the things you cannot prove. With the many many books out there in print, it's safe to say nearly every desire is listed in a book somewhere. What else would man write about if not his desires or passions? I do what I desire, and there are times where what's responsible isn't exactly what I desire but I have to do it anyway. Don't think for a second that my belief Satan is real is compulsion rather than indulgence.

 Quote:
... You'll find that it is quite easy to tempt a xtain with desire even though he at first refuses with the excuse of "I'm not supposed to do that it is unholy" ...


Yeah yeah yeah... I had quite a few Christian girlfriends

 Quote:
... or blah blah blah. What experience can you base your theistic belief off of has satan spoken with you, offered you a contract for your soul???


If you have seen The Secret, it's the Universe (which they explain is synonymous with God) acting in accordance to your will. All my experiences can be explained by that. When you take in account Ritual Magick, it works together with that perfectly. Both faith and practice are at the core of Ritual Magick as well.

You cannot ask me to do what you cannot do yourself adversely.

You must keep in mind it's hard to prove ANYTHING unless you were actually there, and even in that case it comes down to what people want to believe or what they want you to believe.

When it comes to law, sure you have evidence... You have the prosecutors arguing a case for the state and the defense arguing a case for their client before the people who will decide beyond a reasonable doubt for themselves.

Nobody really knows who is right. "Tangible proof" can go either way. My tangible proof rests in the design of all the worlds ecosystems like I stated before with the bears, bugs and fish. Other ones, while they aren't as simple as The Onion article of "Christ categorically denies speaking with Pastor So-and-So" (he sees a cross and has a moment where he spoke to Christ) they are simple moments I interperet as divine intervention.

After all, who really cares? You are free to think he isn't. All I ever said is "I think he is" and all the sudden it's like South Park " *scoff* YOU believe in a higher BEING?! (lol)"

OH MY SCIENCE!

YOUR SCIENCE IS FLAWED! YOU EAT UPON TABLES WHEN YOU HAVE PERFECTLY FINE TUMMIES!


Edited by Raziel LaVey (09/08/08 08:56 AM)

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#13205 - 10/22/08 10:52 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Amina]
BlacKAcRE66 Offline
pledge


Registered: 10/22/08
Posts: 59
Loc: California
 Originally Posted By: Amina
 Originally Posted By: Japster
There seem to be a lot of differences between the satanism potrayed in the Sananic Bible and Tradition Satanism. Which one is the right one if they are different and what makes you say the one is better than the other?


You could try to read a little academic literature on the different forms of Satanism. This could give you a kind of overview of the different kinds and what they stand for. What is the best kind? This is a subjective religious question of the same type as when a Christian try to figure out if catholicism or protestantism is the best faith for him or her. It is not an objective or academic question. As a satanist you are a bit more lucky then the Christian who have between 20.000 and 30.000 different kinds of Christrianity to choose from, because we have fewer kinds of Satanism and because the different kinds of Satanism differ much on very central points. Some forms are atheistic, others theistic and so on. LaVey would be a god place to spart if you want a rationalistic/atheistic kind of Satanism. The ONA would be great if you want to mix a theistic would view with racism and magic (a bit like a mix of the the Christian KKK and Wicca). The Temple of Set if you want to try out a theistic kind of Satanism with an Egyptian flavor and a focus of personal development of the magical kind. You could also try the Satanic Reds if you like eastern kinds of religion, socialism and mixing of all kinds of traditional beliefs.

- Amina


"The Satanic Reds"? That's interesting...Got any reference material? I would like to check them out lol! Please I'm not disrespecting, but I find it amusing that Satanism represents freedom to indulge which is something the former Soviet Union did not exactly encourage. But then again Karl Marx was into "free love", and Russians love their vodka. haha
_________________________
~The power to deny is as the power of myth~

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#13216 - 10/22/08 11:41 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: BlacKAcRE66]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Don't expect a fancy website: Satanic Reds

Not sure if there is other stuff online.

Although I don't agree with much there, I've always had a soft spot for some of the authors.

D.

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#13227 - 10/22/08 02:27 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Diavolo]
BlacKAcRE66 Offline
pledge


Registered: 10/22/08
Posts: 59
Loc: California
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
Don't expect a fancy website: Satanic Reds

Not sure if there is other stuff online.

Although I don't agree with much there, I've always had a soft spot for some of the authors.

D.


I checked out the Website, and you're right it isn't fancy, its geocities lol! Their page sucks because it just absolutely cluttered with reference material which makes me think it is just a page to praise somebody's book knowledge. Not to say we're not suppose to read and understand what we believe, but those types of pages are just overkill.

Thanks for the info.
_________________________
~The power to deny is as the power of myth~

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#13344 - 10/23/08 02:15 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: BlacKAcRE66]
BlacKAcRE66 Offline
pledge


Registered: 10/22/08
Posts: 59
Loc: California
Okay, what is LaVeyan Satanism? What is Traditional Satanism?

I don't know if you can really determine what traditional Satanism is...Traditional Satanism can be whatever you conjure up in your imagination which would be sort of like LaVeyan Satanism except LaVeyans have a bible..

Satan did not come into being until after the Jewish Tanakh was written and yet the Book Of Job is the oldest book in the Bible. this predates Moses and records Satan Talking to Adonis which suggest Satan could have been made up by a Chaldean or Babylonian story teller. It is interesting that along with the Ten Commandments came also the definition of evil. Satan is just a name applied to what would be considered chaotic circumstances or repercussions, which LaVeyans might agree with...

Satan, is something that has many forms...It could be the black plague, it could be George W. Bush. But for some who really take the issue seriously it could be Seth, Khali, Zeus, Apollo.

The image of Baphomet as depicted by Eliphas Levi exhibits Thoth as being such an arcane creature with dual attributes Male / Female A male phallus and the breast of a woman. One masculine hand and the other feminine. These represent the polarity values at work in all of us to work noble or ignoble or a balance at work...So Satan could be also Isis,Semiramis,or Diana, Venus, Aphrodite,Virgo. Satanism is dualism. Satan is benevolent and a destroyer at the same time. I consider Levi's depiction to be an accurate testimony.

Now I am coming from a different perspective than LaVey's because if I just wrote what I wrote then I am implying Satan is chaos and therefore you cannot have chaos unless you have two rivals which are the left and right hand path...Satan is Lord of Chaos.

The so called Christian otherwise known as Xian had hijacked the concept of the right hand path and have used it to suppress the true meaning and power of the knowledge by creating metaphors such as the Great White Lodge and the Catholic Church which is the biggest fabricator of ancient mysteries.

To the LaVey people I am not trying to force my belief I am just sharing.




Edited by BlacKAcRE66 (10/23/08 02:34 PM)
_________________________
~The power to deny is as the power of myth~

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#17251 - 12/31/08 12:11 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Sinistar]
Chey Offline
Banned
stranger


Registered: 12/08/08
Posts: 12
I say that traditional Satanism is better because Satan is my master. LaVeyans only use him as a symbol, but do not believe. But isn't his presence obvious?
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#17256 - 12/31/08 12:29 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Chey]
paolo sette Offline
member


Registered: 12/12/08
Posts: 263
Loc: IL, USA
Well said. Like many of the responses, Satan is the over-Lord, and demands certain responsibilities that are carried out by us. I like the names of Sedit (the Native American Devil), and Tchort (the Russian Devil) with Satan and the Devil. A Buddha that lived long ago is known as being Evil, and goes by the name of Sogamoni Bul. There are many names for Satan that appear throughout time. Even before you had the notion of good versus Evil, you had the interpretation of there being a higher force. The force for our community is Satan, and he is victorious over the catholic god. What a fine time to be living, and witnessing our Lord's winning.

Satan rules supreme.
_________________________
tathagata-svapratyatma-aryajnana-adhigama
666
[nig]-ge-na-da a-ba in-da-di nam-ti i-u-tu

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#17276 - 12/31/08 02:27 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: paolo sette]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1640
Loc: Orlando, FL
Responsibilities? Where exactly did you get this from? Name at least two groups of people that have historically practiced "traditional Satanism" for the past four centuries.

Besides, "religious responsibilities" and other such pointless dogmas are for the slaves of Yahweh and other reality-denying deities. A Satanist should emulate Satan and not recognize any higher authority than himself.

And it's stupid to equate every single devil-figure in world mythology with Satan, because they share little in common with their "infernal brothers", other than being slandered as the cause of evil or mischief. Satan is enthroned in Satanism because his judeo-christian and occult traits are associated with independent thought, carnality, dark wisdom, rebellion, animalistic existence, et cetera. The other "devils" of the world, on the other hand, are mostly treated as one-dimensional personifications of natural things like storms and plagues, or dimwitted folk-villains to be fooled by loveable rogues of legend.

In this respect, Satan/Lucifer is unique among devils in that he represents something that can be interpreted as positive.


Edited by The Zebu (12/31/08 02:31 AM)
_________________________
«Recibe, ¡oh Lucifer! la sangre de esta víctima que sacrifico en tu honor.»

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#17281 - 12/31/08 03:07 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: The Zebu]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3117
 Quote:
Believe it or not you do too. Since you can't prove or disprove something like God your lack of faith that he does exist is your faith that he doesn't. I am merely the opposite.

Actually we can proof god doesn't exist. Only negative point is the plain fact you find the evidence not very credible. That's your opinion. Same goes from your point of view, you may have evidence he exists, but I may find the credibility factor to low.

 Quote:
If you have seen The Secret, it's the Universe (which they explain is synonymous with God) acting in accordance to your will. All my experiences can be explained by that. When you take in account Ritual Magic, it works together with that perfectly. Both faith and practice are at the core of Ritual Magick as well.

If I use god in all my answers I'd be quite dumb right now.
But tell me, since you act like you have "seen" the "secret". What is it? What is this so-called secret? Because actually, I think there is no secret but only your urge to try to feel important like the rest. Let me burst the bubble.. you are unique.. just like the rest of the world.

 Quote:
I say that traditional Satanism is better because Satan is my master. LaVeyans only use him as a symbol, but do not believe. But isn't his presence obvious?

Welcome to the darker of dumbing of the people. I can be your daddy if you want to, I'll give you the respect you have been crying by yelling out "hail Satan".


Edited by Dimitri (12/31/08 03:09 AM)
_________________________
Ut vivat, crescat et floreat

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#17285 - 12/31/08 03:25 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Dimitri]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1640
Loc: Orlando, FL
re: dimitri

Good ideas, but I just wanted to point out that you're kinda flogging a dead horse at the moment, as the post is old and the OP hasn't posted here since September...
_________________________
«Recibe, ¡oh Lucifer! la sangre de esta víctima que sacrifico en tu honor.»

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#17288 - 12/31/08 03:36 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: The Zebu]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3117
 Originally Posted By: The Zebu
re: dimitri

Good ideas, but I just wanted to point out that you're kinda flogging a dead horse at the moment, as the post is old and the OP hasn't posted here since September...

Aww shacks.. that's a pain in the arse.
_________________________
Ut vivat, crescat et floreat

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#17630 - 01/05/09 08:42 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Sinistar]
Jerry Offline
lurker


Registered: 01/01/09
Posts: 4
i prefer laveyan Satanism, even though some dont consider it REAL Satanism i like the views is expresses and most of them relate to mt own.
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#17657 - 01/05/09 09:21 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Jerry]
Mike Offline
member


Registered: 09/11/07
Posts: 253
Loc: Farmingdale, NY
 Quote:

i prefer laveyan Satanism, even though some dont consider it REAL satanism i like the views is expresses and most of them relate to mt own.


Do you believe that the people who don't consider it to be "real" Satanism are right? Do you feel it is real Satanism? By saying "even though some don't consider it REAL Satanism" it sounds like your letting others opinions effect you own. My advice to you (even though you haven't asked for it) is to do the same thing I am...Read more, talk less. In the end you'll see how it is beneficial. And, a rhetorical question...What is it that has brought you here? Besides the fact that the ideas of Satanism relate to your own ideas, what do you wish to accomplish here? I don't mean to sound like an asshole, but your first couple of posts here were lame, and perhaps this isn't the right place for you. My suggestion is to read more into Satanism before posting here, something I didn't do when I first came here that I should've. And if you find my tone to be a little rough, duck and cover when others reply to your posts, seriously.
_________________________
-Mike, "The Patron Satanic Saint of the Youth"

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#17670 - 01/06/09 01:35 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Mike]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
Sir Francis Dashwood's Hell Fire Club! FTW
_________________________
No gods. No masters.

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#17682 - 01/06/09 02:47 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
daevid777 Offline
active member


Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 951
Loc: Hell's Pisshole, Texas
No. It is Mike, the Patron Satanic Saint of the Youth... thank you very much.

And, in this case... Go forth, Young Mike, it is your responsibility now - fuck 'em up, in the "olden" ways with which you are accustomed-eth...

Lo! We are dying, this old race... Yea!, new, and newness, supplicants must carry forth this darkness, this awesome terror... destroy them, lest they be destroyed unto themselves!
_________________________
Where we're going, we don't need roads.

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#17703 - 01/06/09 01:26 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: daevid777]
Mike Offline
member


Registered: 09/11/07
Posts: 253
Loc: Farmingdale, NY
Right on Daevid. However I don't feel fit to "destroy" anyones stupidity yet, considering I still have much to learn. Sure I have a somewhat better grasp on Satanism than others my age (or in general with some I've spoken to), but I'm not going to pose as a techer while I am still a student. The best I can do is give advice....I'll leave the destroying to the professionals. ;\)
_________________________
-Mike, "The Patron Satanic Saint of the Youth"

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#17724 - 01/06/09 10:41 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Morgan]
Tom Offline
stranger


Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 7
I am new to the chat rooms and so I feel that I am probably misinformed and will probably be banned from future discussions . I feel that all people make up their own minds . When they ask for help, should we tell them to fuck off? We all do some research and generally expand on other persons research as well . That is how knowledge is passed on . But deliberately trying to humiliate someone because of their literacy in a post where your grammer is just as bad ? (Read your post). Although I do agree with one statement you have : Don't like what I say , Kiss my ass !
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#17752 - 01/07/09 01:04 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Tom]
daevid777 Offline
active member


Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 951
Loc: Hell's Pisshole, Texas
I guess it's "how you do the asking"...

A real, honest question is never really answered negatively. It is when people start spouting their brand new dogma upon others that have heard the same shit a myriad of incarnations... over and over - they're just asking for "it".

Anyway, ever hear of being "beaten-in"? If you can't fight, or at least hold your ground for a few minutes... then what the hell use are you?

Mike's been beaten, pissed on, propped up, crucified, dragged down, torn down, mind-fucked, and ass-rapped (so I've heard)... and he's still here annoying all of us (sorry ).

(but this question, and my answer to it, are not on the topic of this particular thread, I do believe there is another one already in existance that discusses your concerns.)
_________________________
Where we're going, we don't need roads.

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#17755 - 01/07/09 01:22 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Tom]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3810
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
 Quote:
When they ask for help, should we tell them to fuck off?

If telling them to fuck off serves your purpose or gives you a jolly or two, why not?

Asking for something doesn't amount to entitlement to something, now does it?
_________________________
ADM
ideological vandal

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#17778 - 01/07/09 09:48 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Dan_Dread]
Tom Offline
stranger


Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 7
I have never asked or expected entitlement to answer any of my questions . And I expect no quarter from any of you ,for any reason . ( sorry for not following the discussion forum ) Tom
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#17780 - 01/07/09 11:59 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: daevid777]
Mike Offline
member


Registered: 09/11/07
Posts: 253
Loc: Farmingdale, NY
 Quote:
Mike's been beaten, pissed on, propped up, crucified, dragged down, torn down, mind-fucked, and ass-rapped (so I've heard)... and he's still here annoying all of us (sorry ).


The truth hurts, lol. But seriously, am I still as annoying as I was three years ago? I've learned a lot, and trust me I don't post as often as I would like to, I hold back the urge.

And who isn't annoying when they're trying to debate you and have a different outlook on something you believe? And don't forget, I'm still young and have much more to learn than others on here...


Edited by Mike (01/07/09 12:03 PM)
_________________________
-Mike, "The Patron Satanic Saint of the Youth"

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#17795 - 01/07/09 10:03 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: LUCIFERIFIC]
Tom Offline
stranger


Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 7
Kayla , I don't know you or anything about you and I am new enough so I have never had the pleasure of reading any of your posts . But one thing I have learned in life is " Never let the S.O.B.'s get you down ! Don't give up on yourself .
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#17797 - 01/07/09 10:11 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Tom]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3810
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Hi Tom. The user you are responding to was banned from this site many many moons ago, so don't expect any response.


Also, you took my last post in which I quoted you completely out of context, and responded totally out of kind. You may want to re-read it.
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#17798 - 01/07/09 10:16 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Dan_Dread]
Tom Offline
stranger


Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 7
I know that this is probably off topic , but do we actually discuss Satanic topics here or personality traits ?
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#17799 - 01/07/09 10:19 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Dan_Dread]
Tom Offline
stranger


Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 7
No problem . I will read it again and I also won't expect a reply to my other post . Thanks for the info .
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#19546 - 02/02/09 02:09 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Japster]
Bonez666W Offline
stranger


Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 5
Loc: Texas, United States
My thoughts on that actually is neither are better than the other both contribute in there own way and from my knowledge Satanism has always been about believing what you believe and trust in yourself to make the right choice.

To me having a spiritual part and a more physical part just make it all the more intressting like for me I guess you could say its more of a LaVeyan belief with a twist but all in all I believe that both are very big contributors (I hope I spelt that right) in Satanism and for somebody to bash one by sayin its better than the other, that just wouldnt seem correct to me.

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#19682 - 02/05/09 04:58 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Japster]
Gratikus Offline
pledge


Registered: 05/24/08
Posts: 61
IMO, Traditional Satanist are nut jobs, but I'm not on a crusade to save them or fight them or anything. I don't condone traditional Satanism anymore than I condone Christianity. If some one asked me if it was cool if they practiced Christianity I would say, "Hey, do what you want," but in the back of my head I would be thinking that such a person is a nut job...on some kind of level.

With that said, I also understand that, to a Christian, a LaVeyian Satanist and a Theistic Satanist are basically the same thing. We're all under the influence of the devil, but then anyone who isn't a Christian is under the influence of the devil anyway, so that doesn't say much.

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#19687 - 02/05/09 11:40 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Gratikus]
Mike Offline
member


Registered: 09/11/07
Posts: 253
Loc: Farmingdale, NY
 Quote:
IMO, Traditional Satanist are nut jobs


Most people who follow a theistic belief structure are nuts, some more than others. Out of all the theistic philosophies/religions I have looked into, traditional Satanism is the only one I have even the least amount of respect for. It's not just inverted Christianity, nor is it mindless devil worship. There is no "horned god" of the abyss or a big red guy with a pitchfork that tortures the soul after death forever until the end of time. Traditional Satanists see Satan in a completely different light than Christians. The only thing they have in common is that they both base their beliefs on the bible. Traditional Satanists look at the bible from a different point of view, seeing Satan as a liberator and the true savior of humanity who stepped up to the non-all powerful god Jehova. The idea of hell to a traditional Satanist is not a pit of evil with a lake of fire either. It is seen as Satan's kingdom where his faithful will reside with him.

Saying Traditional Satanists are nut jobs is one thing, but they're at least on a somewhat higher level than most Christians in the sense that they have no organization to tell them how to practice their religion. They look at the bible and nothing else, and they are at least smart enough to tell the representation of God in a Christian sense is pure bullshit just by reading their scripture.
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#19691 - 02/05/09 03:29 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Mike]
blsk Offline
member


Registered: 09/22/08
Posts: 298
Loc: salem or
Okay, so let me get this strait...they believe that the "god" of the bible is real, that the bible IS the word of "god" and all that, correct? So do they believe that the bible is more propaganda on behalf of the "true gods" agenda? Or do they believe that the bible is true period? If they believe it to be "propaganda" that would make more sense to me but if they think it to be "acurate" then where do they get the idea that "hell" is someplace pleasent?
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#19692 - 02/05/09 04:27 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: blsk]
Mike Offline
member


Registered: 09/11/07
Posts: 253
Loc: Farmingdale, NY
 Quote:
Okay, so let me get this strait...they believe that the "god" of the bible is real, that the bible IS the word of "god" and all that, correct?


Correct.

 Quote:
So do they believe that the bible is more propaganda on behalf of the "true gods" agenda? Or do they believe that the bible is true period?


They believe the bible is an actual account of history and look at the stories from a different perspective than Christians in a way that makes Satan seem like he stood up against god due to harsh rule.

 Quote:
If they believe it to be "propaganda" that would make more sense to me but if they think it to be "acurate" then where do they get the idea that "hell" is someplace pleasent?


The idea isn't that hell is a pleasant place. The idea of hell in the bible is the furthest place away from god and the kingdom of Satan. There is no representation of the classic "lake of fire" hell in the bible. This representation didn't come about until I believe the 16th century with the Roman catholic church using it to scare people into going to church. The place of torture representation of hell was also made popular by poems and stories written by various authors of that time period.
_________________________
-Mike, "The Patron Satanic Saint of the Youth"

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#19694 - 02/05/09 05:46 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Mike]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3810
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Where exactly do you get this idea that hell is a place for Satans faithful? I think you made that up.

I also think your representation of what 'traditional satanists' believe is localized only to you. I have yet to meet two 'traditional satanists' that believe the same thing, much less in your version.

The fact is, 'traditional Satanism' is an ethereal nothing that can only be roughly defined as some sort of literal belief in an actual physical being that may or may not even be named satan.

Either way, it has nothing to do with actual Satanism.
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#19696 - 02/05/09 06:21 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Dan_Dread]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
Years ago there was a group of kids who ended up offing some girl because they believed in some "satanic paradise" that they would go to for sacrificing her where they would be given leadership of 72 legions of Hell, etc. A lot of this kind of thinking became almost encoded in the minds of those who started playing games like Warcraft, etc., where the creatures were based somewhat on the idea that if there is a heaven, there must be an opposite hell... for every angel, there must be a demon.

Soooo, when you look at it in real time (that being the creation of The Church of Rome) you come up with an organization that has a solid core of reality. You can touch the brick and mortar of the churches and you can see the saints and the knights and the legions that fall under the auspices of The Holy See. These mirrored to some degree the Roman Legions (interesting to note that along with the Catholic Church, La Cosa Nostra in Sicily also adopted this organizational structure.) The Catholic Church also adopted the Roman conquest's practice of merging the gods of any new conquered territories with the present Roman pantheon, making the populace easier to control, thus the CURRENT policy of canonizing a new Saint from the prospects of any country in which Catholicism is prominent... but that's neither here nor there.

It's actually a strange type of application of the principle, "As Above, So Below." The idea of a Satanic construct like the Catholic construct isn't feasible on a real time, brick and mortar level... who knows, at some point in time, there could well be an organized religious power on that level, but for present, all that can be provided is a vision of what "might be."

So, in the minds of those who are seeing this concept they call Theistic Satanism as an inversion of Christian mythos, it only makes sense that they would come up with a darker mirror version of what was there for them to copy. Hell is seen as a place of torment... mirror vision... a place of comfort. God is seen as omnipotent... mirror version... Satan rules. Heaven is a reality of life after death... mirror vision... Hell must therefore exist as well. And to them it makes a lot of sense because CHRISTIANS have a "happy place," so then, logic (based on the illogic of myth as reality) SATANISTS must have a "happy place" as well.
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#19697 - 02/05/09 06:48 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Mike]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1640
Loc: Orlando, FL
I have two major problems with what you said.

The idea of hell to a traditional Satanist is not a pit of evil with a lake of fire either. It is seen as Satan's kingdom where his faithful will reside with him

Even in the context of the bible, Hell has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with Satan. According the bible, Hell is not ruled by Satan, but by God. Satan, furthermore, doesn't live in Hell- he resides on Earth. The only thing Satan exercises dominion over is the material world itself, which is why he is called "Rex Mundi" or "King of the World".

The idea of Satan ruling over Hell is a myth made up by misinformed Catholics in the middle ages, who got their bastardized monotheist idealism mixed up with their own European pagan lore.

They look at the bible and nothing else

Wrong again. This was true of primitive Theistic Satanic ideas, but most of them nowadays are so disgusted by any Abrahamic taint that they will cling onto pagan sources like Sumerian religion and the scriptures of the Yezidi, even though they have NOTHING to do with Satanism, despite how many crazy and nonsensical syncretisms they try to make-- to the point where they look sillier than Wiccans.

but they're at least on a somewhat higher level than most Christians in the sense that they have no organization to tell them how to practice their religion.

Not in the least. Modern Christians are mostly excusable because they are raised to believe that all the crazy shit in their religion is true. They don't know better, and most have accepted their religion at face value without evaluating it objectively. Furthermore, Christianity is at least backed by centuries of scripture and tradition.

The vast majority of Theistic Satanists, however, are not indoctrinated, so it takes a special kind of nutjob to take that extra step into a theistic religion that doesn't even have falsified scripture, prophets, or even more than 50 years of "tradition".

And also, most Theistic Satanists are not so independently. Most of them I run across try to redirect me to some crazy organization like the Joy of Satan or the Temple of the Black Light, and adapt their terminology and ideas like parrots.

But there are some "independent" Theistic Satanists. So what is their justification? "Personal experience"... ohhhhhhhh jesus...

Yes, personal experience is a good solid foundation for philosophy and learning your way in the world. But when you're making wild supernatural claims like "There is a supereme god named Father Satan who rules over the kingdom of hell and promises otherworldly rewards to his disciples", you're going to need a fuckload of better proof than just "personal spiritual experience".

Why? Because EVERYONE has their own crazy "spiritual experiences" about Jesus, Allah, Mohammad, Sephiroth (the Final Fantasy character, not the Kabbalistic abstract), and the Flying Spaghetti monster. They don't mean jack shit. When you make giant metaphysical statements of a religious nature, or you feel the supernatural "presence" of some ghost or demon, think for a moment that maybe it might just be ALL IN YOUR HEAD.

And no bullshit about the brain being a gateway to the "astral plane" either. That's only a terrible intellectual copout made up by New Agers who were too scared to admit that their imaginary friends might not actually exist.

So are all Theistic Satanists nutjobs? No. But that vast majority of them are.


Edited by The Zebu (02/05/09 06:52 PM)
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#19699 - 02/05/09 07:43 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Dan_Dread]
Mike Offline
member


Registered: 09/11/07
Posts: 253
Loc: Farmingdale, NY
 Quote:
Where exactly do you get this idea that hell is a place for Satans faithful? I think you made that up.


Back when I used to practice traditional Satanism (which didn't end until a few months ago) I followed the teachings of a group known as the Cathedral of The Black Goat which were gathered together in "The Devil's Bible". This is what I based my beliefs off of. As you stated, you'll never find two self-proclaimed traditional satanists that believe everything the same. It's one way to some and another to others. I wasn't making anything up, I was speaking from my experience and what I knew about the beliefs of the version of traditional Satanism I once followed.
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-Mike, "The Patron Satanic Saint of the Youth"

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#19701 - 02/05/09 07:52 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: The Zebu]
Mike Offline
member


Registered: 09/11/07
Posts: 253
Loc: Farmingdale, NY
I agree with you almost 100%. As I said in my last post, I was giving details of the version of traditional Satanism I knew. I didn't say they didn't twist and turn bible stories around per-se, however what I was getting at was that they at least see through the bullshit scattered throughout the bible that would make god look like the hero and Satan look like the enemy (of humanity I mean).

 Quote:
Why? Because EVERYONE has their own crazy "spiritual experiences" about Jesus, Allah, Mohammad, Sephiroth (the Final Fantasy character, not the Kabbalistic abstract), and the Flying Spaghetti monster. They don't mean jack shit. When you make giant metaphysical statements of a religious nature, or you feel the supernatural "presence" of some ghost or demon, think for a moment that maybe it might just be ALL IN YOUR HEAD.

And no bullshit about the brain being a gateway to the "astral plane" either. That's only a terrible intellectual copout made up by New Agers who were too scared to admit that their imaginary friends might not actually exist.

So are all Theistic Satanists nutjobs? No. But that vast majority of them are.


It is all in their head, I agree with you on that, as well as the whole "astral plane" business. It's merely ones imagination going overboard. I once believed I was conversing with demons from a different dimension. Then what happened? My doctor put me on pills, and guess what? The 'demons' disappeared. I'm not saying all theists are crazy and that their spiritual experiences are hallucenations/delusions, I'm stating the fact that it IS all in their head in one way or another. You don't need to be crazy to believe delusions that result from faith, however to have faith for the most part is as you said a little nuts.
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-Mike, "The Patron Satanic Saint of the Youth"

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#19703 - 02/05/09 08:14 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Mike]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1640
Loc: Orlando, FL
Cathedral of the Black Goat?!?!? Cheee-rist, that's nearly as reverse-Christian as you can get. Ever checked out Diane Vera's site? At last her ideas mostly make sense.

Edited by The Zebu (02/05/09 08:14 PM)
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#19704 - 02/05/09 08:20 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: The Zebu]
Mike Offline
member


Registered: 09/11/07
Posts: 253
Loc: Farmingdale, NY
I know. Also the most mouthful when it comes to bashing others beliefs. Diane Vera I've heard of, but I've never read anything by her. I really don't feel the need to look into her ideas anyway. As far as I know I'm finished with theism.
_________________________
-Mike, "The Patron Satanic Saint of the Youth"

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#19714 - 02/05/09 11:23 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: The Zebu]
Gratikus Offline
pledge


Registered: 05/24/08
Posts: 61
 Originally Posted By: The Zebu
Ever checked out Diane Vera's site? At last her ideas mostly make sense.


I met this woman, and her group in person once and let me just say this: People's real life persona is often strikingly different than their online ones. If you ever meet this woman in person, you will see that she is clearly mentally ill.


Edited by Gratikus (02/05/09 11:48 PM)

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#19715 - 02/05/09 11:47 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Gratikus]
Gratikus Offline
pledge


Registered: 05/24/08
Posts: 61
You know, the downside to our religion is that it tends to attract the mentally ill. And I'm telling you, ALL of the mentally ill that are attracted to Satanism gravitate towards Theistic Satanism. The mentally ill are more prone to believing that they see demons and talk to demons, which makes Theistic Satanism fertile ground for them. If I were a Theistic Satanist, I wouldn't know who to trust (if I was around other Theistic Satanist, that is.) That person you're doing a knife ritual with...he could very well be insane, and that knife might end up in a place that you don't want it to be.
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#19722 - 02/06/09 12:43 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Gratikus]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1640
Loc: Orlando, FL
Ah... You do make a valid point, as the crazier the views on superstition get, the crazier the actual person who holds them tend to be. Any mystic/occult area is fertile breeding ground for mentally unhealthy people, especially the "downtrodden" ones like Satanism.

That's a main reason why I'm extremely skeptical about the whole "group ritual/forming a grotto" aspect of Satanism, which is what many people initially gravitate towards because they're looking for group solidity. You don't know who the heck you'd be rounding in, and most of them would be gullible morons anyway.
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#19734 - 02/06/09 03:28 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: The Zebu]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3117
 Quote:
The idea of hell to a traditional Satanist is not a pit of evil with a lake of fire either. It is seen as Satan's kingdom where his faithful will reside with him

Even in the context of the bible, Hell has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with Satan. According the bible, Hell is not ruled by Satan, but by God. Satan, furthermore, doesn't live in Hell- he resides on Earth. The only thing Satan exercises dominion over is the material world itself, which is why he is called "Rex Mundi" or "King of the World".

The idea of Satan ruling over Hell is a myth made up by misinformed Catholics in the middle ages, who got their bastardized monotheist idealism mixed up with their own European pagan lore.

Zebu and mike:
If you know a bible a bit like I do, you should have known it's an overall misinterpretation to say the hell exists. Following the NT Hell will only be created by god on the end of the apocalypse. Normally when people die in christian mythology they tend to go to a sort of world of lost souls. While the good Christians may automatically go to heaven. However due to religious rapture and crave for control this has been changed a bit.

This of course if some of you are traditionally inspired. And that's also one of the mistakes Aquino has made when writing one of his books. At the moment in our modern society, everyone who believes in god or something linked to Christianity has been told Hell exists already, which is absolutely wrong.

 Quote:
You know, the downside to our religion is that it tends to attract the mentally ill. And I'm telling you, ALL of the mentally ill that are attracted to Satanism gravitate towards Theistic Satanism.

Gratikus: you are making a mistake here. In Satanism there are as much mentally ill people as Christianity as in Islam as in other religions. As soon as people start to see demons, gods, angels, Christ, Buddha, Mohammed,... they are mentally ill. If you take a look at the people who claim to have seen Jesus in their refrigerator or else were I'm sure you'll admit it.
Only problem lies within the fact Satanism is tend to be seen as something raw, unbound. Mentally ill people practicing Satanism at overall are counted with the super nut jobs on earth. While Christianity has the "lesser ones" but their quantity is quite huge.
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#19737 - 02/06/09 04:49 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Dimitri]
Fabiano Offline
member


Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
 Quote:
Zebu and mike:
If you know a bible a bit like I do, you should have known it's an overall misinterpretation to say the hell exists. Following the NT Hell will only be created by god on the end of the apocalypse. Normally when people die in christian mythology they tend to go to a sort of world of lost souls. While the good Christians may automatically go to heaven. However due to religious rapture and crave for control this has been changed a bit.


Dimitri, I have a question for you :

How this sentence fits in your "only in the future" hell model?
 Quote:
For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment;...
2 Peter 2:4

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#19738 - 02/06/09 04:57 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Fabiano]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3117
 Quote:
How this sentence fits in your "only in the future" hell model?
 Quote:
:
For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment....
2 Peter 2:4


Hell by the christian bible is described as a fiery pit where Satan will be punished together with "the sinners".
I've marked the differences in fat. The peter quote you gave me shows they are waiting for their judgement aka Apocalypse and where they wait till hell is created.
They are in the waiting room or as I described: world for lost souls.

Also: the bible is made of different writings from different persons from different times. It confuses things. While the last story talks about hell being created during apocalypse, other writings say hell already exists. I can start to quote other paragraphs from it which may erase your statement. But as said many times before, the book contradicts itself. It shows the one who made it up wasn't really paying attention, read to fast and didn't even try to adjust differences/contradictions.

I'm not planning to make this topic into a "true" vs "false" statement in bible discussion..


Edited by Dimitri (02/06/09 05:05 AM)
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#19739 - 02/06/09 05:30 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Dimitri]
Fabiano Offline
member


Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
I'm not planning to make it into a "true" vs "false" neither...

I was just highlighting that hell can be interpreted in different ways; in 2 Peter 2; hell seems assimilated to a "waiting room" not a "fiery pit". In addition, this is complicated by the fact that we're are reading translations of the bible; translations which are depending on the translator.

For instance in Louis Second 's edition of the bible you cannot find the word "enfer" (french translation of "hell").

Such discussion about hell is only scratching the surface of religion, kinda waste of time to me.
Hell does not exists neither as a gloomy dungeon neither as a fiery pit. So, what a waste of time to discuss, fight and battle to know who's right about this.

Religion is worth only when read in between the lines...

Hell exists, we're all living in it !

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#19744 - 02/06/09 06:11 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Fabiano]
Zoid Offline
member


Registered: 01/24/09
Posts: 109
Loc: USA - New Jersey
 Originally Posted By: Fabiano

Hell exists, we're all living in it !


Said semi-jokingly, if I understand you correctly, yet there's a moderately serious perspective from which I agree with your statement.

I embrace Satan as a Jungian archetype of the collective unconscious, and one dimension of that archetype is the meta-political position of being "Lord of This World," which could cause us to rename this world as "Hell," since Satan rules here.

I hasten to add that Satan as an archetype of the collective unconscious would by definition transcend Christianity, since the collective unconscious transcends Christianity, and thus Hell would simply represent this world as seen with undefiled wisdom rather than hypocritical self-deceit; I.e., it would represent this world as seen in its proper cosmic position; namely, under Satan's thumb.

Another dimension of the Satan archetype, as I perceive it, could be expressed as follows:

"Satan represents the alliance of Id plus Ego victorious over the Superego!"

Yes, I happily synthesize Freud and Jung. It's my party and I'll combine if I want to. \:\)

Thus Hell represents this world perceived as under the thumb of Id plus Ego and by no means whatsoever subservient to Superego or its tawdry demands.

Hell (this world) is the paradisio diabolico!

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#19753 - 02/06/09 07:32 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Zoid]
ortho Offline
stranger


Registered: 01/03/08
Posts: 25
Loc: France.Paris
Hello,
Who is "Shaïtan"? Is it a model of an Hebrew compilation of the Babylonian mystic they have received during their transportation in captivity at Babylone?
Have look on Authentic history through archeology, and true texts (not those which have been re-writen by catholic Church 2 or 3 centuries later the arrival of Jesus "YHShVH", the "avatara" of "GOD".
In the Catholic text "Confiteor"(latin) we can see "Inferos" and not "Infernos"! Inferos means under, at or in "the bottom".
Nothing else! Because it seems we are living on the earth(Hell?"Tartar" ? in Greek? and not in the Sky (heaven)
OM TAT SAT!
That is!

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#19758 - 02/06/09 10:17 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Dimitri]
Gratikus Offline
pledge


Registered: 05/24/08
Posts: 61
[quote=Dimitri]
 Quote:

Gratikus: you are making a mistake here. In Satanism there are as much mentally ill people as Christianity as in Islam as in other religions. As soon as people start to see demons, gods, angels, Christ, Buddha, Mohammed,... they are mentally ill.


This is why I said only Theistic Satanism attracts the mentally ill, because Modern Satanism doesn't believe demons, gods, angels or any other apprehensions to exist beyond your own mind.


In Modern Satanism, aka LaVeyian Satanism, the practitioner must know how to separate his psychodrama from reality. A mentally ill person is incapable of doing this. The mentally ill person does not know how to draw a line between fantasy and reality, there "line of sanity" has been erased. In Modern Satanism, that "line of sanity" is always acknowledged and respected. Sure, we Modern Satanist worship the subconscious mind, but we are fully aware that the subconscious mind can not have total reign.

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#19759 - 02/06/09 10:32 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Gratikus]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
Well said, Gratikus.

All I would add for those who would think that in working within our own subconscious on the psychodramatic level is that while we might use the terminologies of religious constructs, in the names of traditional "demons" or "forces," we are in no way giving tangibility or a sense of power OVER us, rather we are considering their names as a symbol of the power traditionally ascribed to that entity as a part of our own being that we would seek to invoke, enhance or even, in some cases negate.

In doing this, realizing that we are bound to the reality in which we live, yet considering the subconscious and its influences upon us and our visions OF our reality, we're also honoring the role of dichotomy in human nature and indeed of much of the world in general. We are simultaneously dealing with fact and fantasy in order to integrate the dichotomic whole.
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Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#19786 - 02/06/09 04:18 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Gratikus]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1640
Loc: Orlando, FL
You pretty much hit the mark. Jake as well.

Although needless to say I've met some mentally ill Christians who claimed to physically see demons and angels everywhere, and based on their emotional demeanor were clearly not quite healthy in the head. Overall they're not that much different from the crazies in Satanism.
_________________________
«Recibe, ¡oh Lucifer! la sangre de esta víctima que sacrifico en tu honor.»

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#19789 - 02/06/09 04:44 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Jake999]
Zoid Offline
member


Registered: 01/24/09
Posts: 109
Loc: USA - New Jersey
 Originally Posted By: Jake999
All I would add for those who would think that in working within our own subconscious on the psychodramatic level is that while we might use the terminologies of religious constructs, in the names of traditional "demons" or "forces," we are in no way giving tangibility or a sense of power OVER us...


Jake, I've been sitting here thinking about your statement above. I certainly agree with it. What struck me was that you felt it needed to be said. At first I didn't understand why that would be the case. But I know you've been doing this a long time so I sat quietly and tried to understand. I think I get it now.

There is a horror motif whereby the foolish disciple of some dark god or demon will serve faithfully, usually performing tasks that will bring the dark god or demon physically into our world where it can wreak havoc. The foolish disciple labors under the delusion of ultimately being rewarded for faithful service, with the reward generally envisioned as a position of power in the new world order. Finally the dark god or demon manifests, perhaps only briefly, but even in its short time here in our world it finds time to make a quick meal of the foolish disciple.

It occurs to me that some who profess a belief in an entity separate from themselves named Satan might be employing the same logic as the foolish disciple described above. "I will serve Satan faithfully, and when Satan takes over the world, I will be rewarded with a position of power." I bet such thinking is more prevalent than I would have guessed. And thus it is important to clarify that we who see Satan as an aspect of ourselves do not in any way subscribe to the logic of the foolish disciple who ends up a tasty morsel.

I continue to find value here on this forum. Thank you, Jake.

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#19790 - 02/06/09 05:02 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Zoid]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3810
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
People give away power because they are too afraid to accept the responsibility that power brings. They would rather have both a scapegoat to blame the perceived 'wrongs' on and a champion to give credit to than accept the consequences and/or glory for themselves. How many famous musicians or champion athletes have given all the credit to god/allah in recent history?

The first is quite understandable, yet still disgusting. In todays society, nobody is responsible for anything bad. It's their parents. Or their environment, Or their education level. Never them.

Ok, nothing new there.

But what of the trend of giving all credit to something else? One would think most would want credit for their own accomplishments. Many, however, do not. A symptom of a sick society overrun by a harmful and intuitively backwards web of judeo-christian based memetics.

Personally, I hoard as much power over my own life as I can muster. If I do something, you can be damn sure I will be taking the full share of the credit, or possibly the blame, if and when the time for either arises.
_________________________
ADM
ideological vandal

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#19807 - 02/06/09 07:03 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Dan_Dread]
joseph oreilly Offline
Incomprehensible--Banned
pledge


Registered: 01/29/09
Posts: 58
Did you ever think that constructing magic that never works but is just enough to make you believe in it, is the most evil thing of all?
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#19818 - 02/06/09 07:49 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: joseph oreilly]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3810
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Ok, I have come to the conclusion that you are either extremely unintelligent or are in the grip of a very serious and problematic drug addiction. Best of luck with that, either way.

Until such a time as you are ultimately banned I will have you on ignore, as I have concluded you will never contribute anything worth reading. As such, all future responses from you to any of my posts will be pointless on your part.
_________________________
ADM
ideological vandal

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#19820 - 02/06/09 08:05 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: joseph oreilly]
Mike Offline
member


Registered: 09/11/07
Posts: 253
Loc: Farmingdale, NY
I think what Dan is trying to say is don't post when you have little to nothing to contribute to the discussion on hand.

Number one, "constructing magic" that doesn't work obviously isn't enough to make you believe in it due to the fact that IT DIDN'T WORK. I'm just pointing out the obvious here...

Number two, what does that have to do with anything "evil"? That's a rhetorical question, don't answer it, for your own good. Constructing magic of any sort that does nothing should be enough to make you not believe in it. If it's "enough to make you believe in it", it must've worked on some level. This is of course unless you're crazy and you fooled yourself into thinking that magic only works some of the time. That would make you no better than a praying Christian man, thinking god will answer his prayers in the form of "yes, no, or eventually".

As harsh as Dan may have sounded, he's right. Even I contribute more to the average thread than you have in this post. How did you even expect people to react to you?

ps: At age 69, I would've expected a lot more from you. Instead, you just got taught a lesson from a kid who's still in high school. Honestly, either upgrade the quality of your posts, or change the age you have set on your profile to a more appropriate number...Ask Dan for a number that might suite you better.


Edited by Mike (02/06/09 08:09 PM)
_________________________
-Mike, "The Patron Satanic Saint of the Youth"

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#19848 - 02/07/09 07:06 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Gratikus]
Gabby Offline
Banned
stranger


Registered: 01/22/09
Posts: 34
Loc: West Virginia
It all depends on your understanding of the term 'insane' which is a pretty broad definition of a person's mentality and reasoning behind what they do and believe. You assume that a person who believes in demons is 'mentally ill'. Why? Because they believe in an entity? Well God is a similar entity too. I don't know for sure whether or not I am haunted by a demon. I don't talk to the demon or 'see' the demon. But he directs me in unusual ways. I have often times wondered if this is my 'shadow' though some people tell me a shadow does not act in this way as it does. The shadow would be suppressed thoughts, not act of its own accord. Maybe Satan is a prehistoric creature, that can make your desires into reality and is an entity that surpasses GOD.
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Gabrielle

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#19851 - 02/07/09 08:16 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Gabby]
Nemesis Offline
senior member


Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
Gabby, you are the LAST person who should be offering advice to others here. Especially on the topic of 'insanity', where you stated:

 Quote:
I am just insane! I love every minute of it and I will continue being insane until I die.

Oh yes...you have much sage wisdom to offer....

Mike: C'mon man...do you seriously think oreilly is 69? That's the most passe age to list oneself as...he's probably younger than you. Teenagers are the only ones who still think '69' is witty.
_________________________
Nothing is sacred.

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#19858 - 02/07/09 09:22 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Nemesis]
Gabby Offline
Banned
stranger


Registered: 01/22/09
Posts: 34
Loc: West Virginia
 Originally Posted By: Nemesis
Gabby, you are the LAST person who should be offering advice to others here. Especially on the topic of 'insanity', where you stated:

 Quote:
I am just insane! I love every minute of it and I will continue being insane until I die.

Oh yes...you have much sage wisdom to offer....

Mike: C'mon man...do you seriously think oreilly is 69? That's the most passe age to list oneself as...he's probably younger than you. Teenagers are the only ones who still think '69' is witty.



Maybe I'd be the first.
_________________________
Gabrielle

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#19891 - 02/07/09 05:31 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Gabby]
Nemesis Offline
senior member


Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
I seriously doubt that. You come on here once a week, stay a couple days to spout some bullshit, then leave. Rinse, repeat. What exactly ARE you doing here? Did you think you'd find some buddies to chat with online? To meet up with people? Which is all well and good, but in case you didn't get the memo, no one here wants to meet you, let alone hold conversations with you. That, and the fact that you get your delicate feelings hurt when someone makes a joke at your expense. What do you think this place is? The Circle Jerk Club? The Recovering Christian-aholics Club? The Respect Me Because I'm Insane Club?

No no, my dear...YOU are the one who needs to mature. Not Mequa (who hurt your feelings in an earlier post). Not Mike, who's right around your age, yet knows better than to expect to be soothed and petted when he makes idiotic, rambling posts.

Go hang out on Yahoo forums and find some eSatanists, or whatever. You obviously have proven that you can't take the heat that is dished out here on a regular basis. Ever heard of Trial by Fire? You failed.
_________________________
Nothing is sacred.

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#19897 - 02/07/09 06:13 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Nemesis]
Mike Offline
member


Registered: 09/11/07
Posts: 253
Loc: Farmingdale, NY
 Quote:
Not Mike, who's right around your age, yet knows better than to expect to be soothed and petted when he makes idiotic, rambling posts.


Yeah, you tell her Nemesis! Oh wait...

Gabby: Accept the fact that you're posts suck, appologize (to yourself mostly) and try to post with more wisdom in the future. Just some friendly advice.
_________________________
-Mike, "The Patron Satanic Saint of the Youth"

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#19899 - 02/07/09 06:15 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Nemesis]
Gabby Offline
Banned
stranger


Registered: 01/22/09
Posts: 34
Loc: West Virginia
 Originally Posted By: Nemesis
I seriously doubt that. You come on here once a week, stay a couple days to spout some bullshit, then leave. Rinse, repeat. What exactly ARE you doing here? Did you think you'd find some buddies to chat with online? To meet up with people? Which is all well and good, but in case you didn't get the memo, no one here wants to meet you, let alone hold conversations with you. That, and the fact that you get your delicate feelings hurt when someone makes a joke at your expense. What do you think this place is? The Circle Jerk Club? The Recovering Christian-aholics Club? The Respect Me Because I'm Insane Club?

No no, my dear...YOU are the one who needs to mature. Not Mequa (who hurt your feelings in an earlier post). Not Mike, who's right around your age, yet knows better than to expect to be soothed and petted when he makes idiotic, rambling posts.

Go hang out on Yahoo forums and find some eSatanists, or whatever. You obviously have proven that you can't take the heat that is dished out here on a regular basis. Ever heard of Trial by Fire? You failed.



I'm not feeding into this. I do not get where you are coming from, what you are trying to tell me, or what weakness you are striving for.


Edited by Gabby (02/07/09 06:16 PM)
_________________________
Gabrielle

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#19900 - 02/07/09 06:17 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Mike]
Gabby Offline
Banned
stranger


Registered: 01/22/09
Posts: 34
Loc: West Virginia
 Originally Posted By: Mike
 Quote:
Not Mike, who's right around your age, yet knows better than to expect to be soothed and petted when he makes idiotic, rambling posts.


Yeah, you tell her Nemesis! Oh wait...

Gabby: Accept the fact that you're posts suck, appologize (to yourself mostly) and try to post with more wisdom in the future. Just some friendly advice.



I shouldn't have been nice to you Mike, or read your shitty story. Yeah, real friendly.........
_________________________
Gabrielle

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#19902 - 02/07/09 06:24 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Gabby]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
Hook, line and sinker....

You are "feeding into this". If you weren't you wouldn't have responded. I got where she was coming from, and if you had read her post you would have too.

By the way; insulting a moderator is not exactly the smartest thing one could do. You could have at least disguised your insult as an intelligent and well thought out response.
_________________________
No gods. No masters.

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#19904 - 02/07/09 06:26 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Mike]
Nemesis Offline
senior member


Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
Sorry Mike! That sentence read all wrong...

It should've gone like, "yet would know better than to expect to be soothed and petted when if he made idiotic, rambling posts."
_________________________
Nothing is sacred.

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#19913 - 02/07/09 08:41 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Gabby]
Mike Offline
member


Registered: 09/11/07
Posts: 253
Loc: Farmingdale, NY
MY shitty story? I was trying to help you out because you're fairly new to the forum and you seemed a bit uneducated in the topic at hand and your claim was a little off. I wasn't trying to be rude, I just couldn't think of a better way to say it. At least I was honest with you, and yes, I was giving you friendly advice. If you plan on sticking around a little longer you'll see that I was being nice compared to the way some would rip you apart, which they probably haven't yet because they don't even see you as worthy enough to be taught a lesson.

I don't care if you should've or shouldn't have been nice to me. I was doing you a favor, no matter what way you see it. Just watch how many people will jump on your case for pulling shit like this in the future. At least some of us had the decency to warn you and attempt to correct you, but if you're really going to be that stubborn you might as well find yourself on the list of members that've been banned.

Toughen up a bit and take what people say and put it to use. One thing I have learned from people on here is that sometimes it's better to just shut up and listen. Perhaps for you this is one of those times.


And thanks Nemesis, I knew what you meant. ;\)


Edited by Mike (02/07/09 08:42 PM)
_________________________
-Mike, "The Patron Satanic Saint of the Youth"

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#20148 - 02/11/09 12:05 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Zoid]
Fabiano Offline
member


Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
Zoid,

1st, when I wrote "Hell exists, we're all living in it !" I mainly mean that this twisted world with its wars, rapes, murders, hypocrysis and all sort of injustice is finally not far from the Hell representation of average man or average Xian.

2nd, I'm not a specialist of Freud and my undertsatnding of Id Ego & Super-Ego is what I just read on wiki.

So, what about Satan as "representing the alliance of Id plus Ego victorious over the Superego!".

First clear thing is that the Super-Ego, seeking for conformity with the society, is the one to overcome.
But is Satan the Id+Ego, that I don't know, I would have to think more about it.

May be taking some more concrete example could help us : the 1st example is named Mr Prozi. It's the man who continued sending electric shocks to another man because a certain Mr Milgram told him that "the experience ought to continue". Mr Prozi gut feeling (id) cried for him to stop, his super-ego shouted he had to continue; but what is his ego in this case, where was it, what was it doing? Sleeping?

2nd example : someone stops smoking. What's the role of the Id here? Is it that who pushes him to smoke, seeking for immediate gratification? What's the role of the Super-Ego and the Ego then?
To me, there're 2 way for stopping smoking. First, one can decide, following a rational thinking process, that's it's beeter to stop, then tries to stop ... and often fails.
Second, one can pay attention to "this little voice" who tells him it's better for him to stop. Is it again the Id crying because he knows & feels that smoking is destroying the body?

I don't have all the answers but these 2 examples hellp me to progress on my own path. So, just want to share with you as it could help you as well...

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#20150 - 02/11/09 12:09 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Mike]
Fabiano Offline
member


Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
 Originally Posted By: Mike

Gabby: Accept the fact that you're posts suck, appologize (to yourself mostly) and try to post with more wisdom in the future. Just some friendly advice.


You want a friendly advice Mike? Stop wasting your love and frienship to the ingrates ;\)

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#20167 - 02/11/09 04:17 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Fabiano]
Mike Offline
member


Registered: 09/11/07
Posts: 253
Loc: Farmingdale, NY
Hey, what can I say? I'm just nice that way. You are right though, but if I can get my point across to one ingrate I've earned myself a nice pat on the back to say the least. I was giving a new member a chance to clean up their act and not get banned. A lost cause of course, but it's the thought that counts.
_________________________
-Mike, "The Patron Satanic Saint of the Youth"

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#21996 - 03/14/09 02:49 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Sinistar]
KennyWhite Offline
lurker


Registered: 03/13/09
Posts: 2
Loc: Omaha Ne
i agree with pigfeeder. he states a validpoint. if your given everything itdosnt show you have faith. in order to have faith you do have to work for it and find it. your choice in what you choose to believe is based all on the amount of effort you put into research and learning. the less you do the harder the choice. but youll figure it out eventually. good luck!!!!
_________________________
"Darkness is light turned inside out"- Beelzebub

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#22030 - 03/15/09 10:36 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: KennyWhite]
FromGehenna Offline
pledge


Registered: 02/24/09
Posts: 53
My personal philosophy as applied to my own professional development is: Faith=Trust. Trust is gained through proof. Because there are way too many bullshitters out there in the industry i work in, and there is a world of difference of walking the walk and talking the talk. Knowledge does not equal experience.
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#22041 - 03/15/09 12:25 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: FromGehenna]
Fist Moderator Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 1453
Loc: B'mo Cautious MF
Well, after 11 pages of this clap-trap, I really must pose a question.

Where in history do you find 'Traditional Satanism'? In nearly 25 years of research, I have never seen any historical reference to Satanism that was (1) not a creation of The Church or (2) uncited historical revisionism by post LaVey authors.

The closest thing I can find to actual worship of 'Satan' as a dark entity are various Latin American and Afro-Caribbean cults. Even these are not 'traditional' religions. Rather, they are an amalgam of aboriginal animism and pantheon combined with the Catholic system of saints and angels.

Where do you people get this 'traditional Satanism' from? Cite a source or simply admit it is all made up!
_________________________
I am the Devil and I am here to do the Devil's work.

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#22042 - 03/15/09 12:28 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Fist]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
Fist cuts it to the BONE!!!

Thanks, Fist.
_________________________
Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#22055 - 03/15/09 07:13 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Jake999]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1640
Loc: Orlando, FL
The only "tradition" Satanism has is purely literary and philosophical (writers like Milton, Shelly, Byron, Blake, Baudelaire, DeSade, Lovecraft, etc that expressed certain Left-Hand ideas or admiration for Satan or satanic qualities) but NOT any kind of "religious tradition" (ie, there was no underground witch-cult giving praises to the devil and performing black masses, or ancient cults worshiping Satan in the guise of a quasi-pagan god). Ever. Period.

Edited by The Zebu (03/15/09 07:16 PM)
_________________________
«Recibe, ¡oh Lucifer! la sangre de esta víctima que sacrifico en tu honor.»

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#22058 - 03/15/09 09:04 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: The Zebu]
Rasha Offline
stranger


Registered: 03/05/09
Posts: 19
In response to the original question in this thread:

You are not going to find what you believe in a book. You will find it deep within yourself after many years of research, trial and error and self reflection. Although knowledge is extremely important, detrimental and crucial, you will come to find deeper meaning in yourself, in your own mind. Einstein said it best "knowledge is limited, imagination circles the world."

Don't take anyones word for it. If you are your own God, chances are you will find the real answers from within yourself. Rather then reading tons and tons of "Satanic material" you might find it more useful to study psychology to better understand yourself, others, and your environment. This will help you better determine which forms of Satanism will be best for you.

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#22063 - 03/15/09 11:21 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Rasha]
paolo sette Offline
member


Registered: 12/12/08
Posts: 263
Loc: IL, USA
I've studied clinical psychology, and it's completely contrary to the Satanic way of life. I've found that through my studies, and practice; it does not lead to a better understanding of life through rationalizations and intellectualizations. When I became strongly aware of this fact, I became very angry. I threw out all the books, periodicals, and papers I had. Psychology does not help improve life or anything associated with it...it finds problems in it's own perspective. I'm knowledgeable about intrapsychic dynamics, but when the real world operates differently, it makes it useless and a waste of time.

And what does, "...everyone is their own god," mean? More specifically, what does 'god' mean to you? I have completely renounced any belief, hope, or faith in god. Just the word makes me mad. Satan is the end all, be all. Satan reigns supreme. Satan is everything, and anything. REGE SATANAS!
_________________________
tathagata-svapratyatma-aryajnana-adhigama
666
[nig]-ge-na-da a-ba in-da-di nam-ti i-u-tu

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#22070 - 03/16/09 04:07 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: paolo sette]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3117
Paolo, by reading your little response I can only conclude you are a failure of life.
Ofcourse doesn't life work as it is written in books. What else did you suspect? Does it mean your books are useless? --> No they aren't. Every scripture or essay contains something which you can use. Psycholgy, as you mentioned, CAN improve your life. You have the knowledge at hands, DO SOMETHING WITH IT! Don't you sit there like a piece of crap behind your computer, get out for a change and live your life. You'll soon notice the acquired knowledge comes in handy when confronted in certain situations. You lack experience. Knowledge without experience is just knowledge and makes you vurnable for mistakes and idiotism (on your own behalf).

 Quote:
And what does, "...everyone is their own god," mean?

If you don't know what it means, it indicates you aren't on the right place or lack intellectual capability. It means nothing more then you being in controle of your own life.


Edited by Dimitri (03/16/09 04:08 AM)
_________________________
Ut vivat, crescat et floreat

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#49511 - 02/24/11 07:21 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Sinistar]
Hegesias Offline
active member


Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 725
Lavey Satanism may put one in his element with all the stimulus most gravitating to him, or land one in a comfort zone only to some abusers though,

The Order of Nine Angles takes you out of all that with exposure to danger and anarchism beyond the constructs of societal order because the most gravitating stimulus for sinister individuals is...


You don't need to be a polarised sinister type for LaVey Satanism and it certainly does not mean you are mundane if you work by it's aggressively intelligent Atheist philosophy with a dark perception of things.
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#50295 - 03/01/11 09:29 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Japster]
rites Offline
stranger


Registered: 09/19/10
Posts: 23
I've only recently decided to fully embrace Satanism as my religion and am not interested in hyphenating it. If by 'Traditional' you mean a belief that Satan is an intelligent entity I would have to say I am open to the idea but still agnostic. A few years ago I bought 'The Satanic Bible' along with a book called 'Shit Magnet' by Jim Goad, a CoS member if I'm correct, both were on sale and after I purchased them my change came to $6.66. Well at first I laughed it off as a funny coincidence, and I'm not saying it wasn't, but still it often makes me wonder if this was a 'sign' ... I don't know really. I'm also not entirely convinced that Lavey did not believe in a more literal Satan. I'm pretty sure, from his writings, he didn't believe in the Christian Devil though. Anyways, I use the Satanic Bible as my main guide to understanding Satanism. Also, if anyone has some thoughts about this odd coincidence I'd love to read them. Thanks in advance.
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#50316 - 03/02/11 07:02 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: rites]
nferno6 Offline
stranger


Registered: 02/27/11
Posts: 11
Loc: Sweden
Rites.

You call Satanism a religion. In my eyes that is a fail. A GIANT fail. I'm not saying it doesn't have a lot of followers, but I doubt any of them would like you calling what they are doing religious. I know I don't.

The 666 thing. In the case of it being a mathematical coincidence, good one.(meaning if the cost and what you paid subtracted to the result in question)
But that number stays a made up bullshit story coming from the bible, and I'm fairly sure that if Lavey used it it was only to piss of some christians, call it adding a bit of humor to a great philosophy. I just read through the book again (scrolled really) and all I could find on that number twas the bit about the black mass in 1666.
I'm fairly sure you may put that number up as christian mass paranoia.

I do like the number 6, don't get me wrong, and its even in my avatar. But only because I could not get Inferno@yahoo.com in 1998. (fucking internet junkies). It has stuck ever since.
_________________________
Lost and alone on the road to the end
Look to the east and smile at the dark

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#50334 - 03/02/11 02:17 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: rites]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
 Quote:
Well at first I laughed it off as a funny coincidence, and I'm not saying it wasn't, but still it often makes me wonder if this was a 'sign'


Coincidence. Don't read into it.

A few years ago I stopped at a store and bought a pack of smokes, a lighter and a soda. The total came out to $6.65 and I noticed there was a jar of candy that was selling for a penny each so I tossed a tootsie-roll on the counter thus bumping the total up to $6.66. I could tell this made the cashier very uncomfortable as she asked another cashier to finish the transaction. Every time I went to the store after that I always bought a pack of smokes, a lighter, a soda and tootsie roll.

Now that a few years as passed and the price of everything is gone up it is doubtful that same combination of items would still end up costing $6.66.

The point: incidents like that can be good for a laugh but don't take them seriously.
_________________________
No gods. No masters.

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#50336 - 03/02/11 02:58 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
The thing is; out of the continuous stream of numbers and words that you encounter daily, specific ones jump out, not because they have some special significance but because one has a mindset easily spotting them. A Crowleyan might be "wake up" when the bill said $4.18.

I got 666 in my birth date, but if it was 378 would it feel similar? Still, it doesn't make me wonder if I ain't the Antichrist.

D.

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#50337 - 03/02/11 03:01 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Diavolo]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
Yep the human mind is trained to recognize patterns, it's why we can see familiar shapes in clouds, shadows etc. And we notice that which is significant to us. Notice how an Atheist has never claimed to see the Virgin Mary on a piece of toast?
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No gods. No masters.

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#50340 - 03/02/11 03:49 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
SkaffenAmtiskaw Moderator Offline
veteran member


Registered: 06/24/09
Posts: 1318
I can't be bothered to find the link for it on YouTube now, but there's a video there of an Atheist finding a message in a piece of fruit or slice of toast, saying "God doesn't exist" or something to that effect. It was a comedy gag, of course, but it was still pretty funny. My question would be; would that constitute proof of God's non-existence, or would the evidence once again be skewed or interpreted otherwise? Would it have made people turn to a pantheistic prankster god?

Either way, it would make people of the gullible sort believe MORE, not less. Looking for correspondence and events linkable only to some extranatural entity ("Coincidence? I don't think so!") is a sure proof you've sold your critical faculties on the cheap in exchange for a fool's hope of pie in an imagined sky.

That being said, many magical practices employ the exploitation of this plausibility factor to achieve real and lasting change within the practitioner, but only as an outer form. Once you leave the ritual chamber, those thoughts are put aside, along with the real, physical Devil with horns, pitchfork and a tail.
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"I'd rather be right than consistent" - Winston Churchill

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#50341 - 03/02/11 03:52 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Japster]
rites Offline
stranger


Registered: 09/19/10
Posts: 23
Yes, coincidence is the only rational explanation. I considered the possibility of my subconscious mind setting this up, but that seems a little far-fetched. And I don't want to use a 'supernatural' explanation because I'm trying to get away from that sort of thinking. As to the poster who said Satanism is not a religion I understand where you are coming from. I see Satanism as being an anti-spiritual religion or maybe even Atheism with the trappings of religion. But probably more of a philosophy. Religion is a flexible word, in my opinion. Some don't like the term and I can see why. Not worth arguing about it though, it's just semantics.
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#50362 - 03/02/11 08:57 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: rites]
MatthewJ1
Unregistered



Take some time to read The Satanic Rituals by Anton LaVey in the media room if you haven't done already.

666 has been well and truly replaced by the power of the 9.

And yes, I see Satanism as a religion.

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#50580 - 03/08/11 12:27 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: ]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2517
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: MatthewJ1
666 has been well and truly replaced by the power of the 9.

Indeed 666 is "the power of the 9":

6+6+6=18, 1+8=9
6x6x6=216, 2+1+6=9
18+216=234, 2+3+4=9
... and so on.
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Michael A. Aquino

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#50582 - 03/08/11 01:14 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
MatthewJ1
Unregistered



Yes, I remember a thread here from some time ago Dr. where the 666 and the 9 were discussed. I think Jake may have also been involved in that one.

Dr. I remember you saying just how serious you and Dr. LaVey were about the 9 and the way other number combination could add up to 9. And then there is that incredible last section of The Satanic Rituals.

I am not sure if this is a good question or an obvious one: was there an attempt to develop a black magical practice based on the certainty of mathematics? Probably a LBM practice?

I mean was/is it possible to determine or control behaviour or other outcomes with total mathematical certainty?

I admit it: I am a sucker for the early C/S and T/S and sometimes tend to read too much into what you and Dr. LaVey had to say, but still...


Edited by MatthewJ1 (03/08/11 01:17 AM)
Edit Reason: Lack of quality

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#50642 - 03/08/11 02:38 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: ]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2517
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: MatthewJ1
Was there an attempt to develop a black magical practice based on the certainty of mathematics? Probably a LBM practice? I mean was/is it possible to determine or control behaviour or other outcomes with total mathematical certainty

Yes and yes, if the situation were one which could be reduced to mathmagic or statistical probability. Anton & the C/S didn't have the opportunity to go very far with this before 1975, other than recognizing its significance and importance [as in "The Unknown Known"]. Nevertheless this entire area is one of the principal identifiable keys of Natural Law. So in both GBM & LBM if you are aware of it and use it to align your workings, you have that inertia in your favor; as Anton would say, "You tilt the Balance Factor." If you don't, your working is that much more random, and probably BF-tilted against you.

I have always been a great fan of Donald in Mathmagic Land as a great way to become sensitized to MM.

My "Ceremony of the Nine Angles" in the Satanic Rituals stinks of MM and Pythagoreanism, and Categories #12 & #20 are good resources. The Temple of Set is indeed quite entangled in MM, probably the Order of the Trapezoid most intensely. Indeed MM is integral to the O.Tr., which is something completely [and comically] elusive to those wannabeing its name.
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Michael A. Aquino

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#50663 - 03/08/11 08:37 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
MatthewJ1
Unregistered



My apologies Dr. if this post seems to jump a bit all over the place.

Thanks for your comments on mathmagic. It seems to me that MM is a very important area to study and research, and very useful for a competent and ethical black magician to use. I will take some time to look into it further. I want to gain a deeper understanding of the balance factor, ‘The Unknown Known’ and the ‘Ceremony of the Nine Angles’ so this study will be valuable.

I have an interest in black magical orders and am primarily attracted to the Order of the Trapezoid, as I think I may have mentioned before.

I think my initial attraction to the O.Tr. was based on two factors:

1. I was very interested in the principles which Mortensen had spoken about in his photographic treatise, and how Dr. LaVey had used those principles to perceive the world and create a powerful LBM based on the visual. I was particularly interested in the overpowering form or shape of the trapezoid and the place this shape had in LaVey’s LBM vision and his thinking. I also liked to regard the trapezoid as a sort of psychological or philosophical form, or principle, or tool, but without really thinking this through completely.
2. I had an interest in the order because I perceived it to be the inner kernel of the early C/S or the intellectual elite of the early C/S, where the most cutting edge research and thinking about the black arts was taking place.

In time I have learnt a little bit more about the O.Tr. from your eBook, particularly with regards to the Wewelsburg working. I also have developed more of an interest in the works of Dr. Flowers and the T/S reading list. To be honest my knowledge of this order is still pretty poor, but I definitely feel that there are some incredible keys available there.

Nowadays the current Church of Satan (as per their website) regards the Order of the Trapezoid this way: “The Order of the Trapezoid consists of the individuals who assist in the administration of the Church of Satan.” Administration of the Church is very important, but I do think that something may have been lost there, which is a shame.

I do note that C/S H.P Peter Gilmore mentions an Order of Fenris in his book the Satanic Scriptures. This order is/was said to include Reverend Nemo and ex – Reverend Diabolus Rex. I think this order may be a more informal arrangement, put together for musical and artistic purposes, rather than for the study of black magic principles and practices.

It is hard to judge the current C/S and what they are up to, as they have a very carefully composed public face, and a lot of what happens, I assume, takes place behind the scenes. I don’t know if they conduct magical research or not. I just don’t know.

The other black magical order which has really attracted me is the Order of Leviathan.

I tend to treasure works of art like The King in Yellow; Lovecraft’s works; The Hastur Cycle, edited by Price; and the utterly beautiful The Man who Lived in Inner Space.

I like the notion of the lurker on the edge attempting to break through into the world; or the subtext which determines and threatens to tear through into the manifest or surface text. I also like the notion of the depths, the darkest and most savage parts of the sea, which the literary character Colin feels compelled to visit, though he may lose his life, and his safety vehicle. His transformation as a result of his confrontation with this darkest and most primal environment is interesting to me and illustrates something essentially human and magical.

I tend to translate these notions into psychological terms, particularly Freudian terms with the primal basic gulf between a conscious and an unconscious and the strain and stress involved in keeping these two areas or “systems” apart. I like the notion of the unconscious depths and the "monster" which lurks there.

Works like The King in Yellow, Lovecraft’s works, and The Man who Lived in Inner Space have a real impact, though my ability to see them completely clearly and use them for magical purposes is still quite limited at this time.

(I am also interested in lycanthropy and have received Eisner’s book. I have not read it yet, however, as I have not yet received The Werewolf of Paris. I want to study both of these works together. I have been waiting about three months now to get the Werewolf from Amazon, but nothing has arrived yet.)




Edited by MatthewJ1 (03/08/11 08:46 PM)
Edit Reason: More lack of quality

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#51935 - 03/30/11 10:26 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Japster]
Big Johnitalia Offline
stranger


Registered: 03/23/11
Posts: 6
I would say that Satanism is very general. Worship yourself as an elevated individual. Nature is your sacred ground. Knowledge and do what you will are the only commandments. From there you fill in the blanks. Research philosophy, and speak with others to help articulate your worldview. If you ask 10 Satanists what their philosophy is, you will have a lot of common answers. However, I bet the differences maybe surprising. Satanism is about individualism to me, and it is up to ourselves to decide what we believe in. We write our own doctrine.
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-- a miserable spectacle of wrecked humanity, pitiable to others, and intolerable to myself.

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#51941 - 03/30/11 04:40 PM Re: Bases of Satanisms [Re: Big Johnitalia]
nocTifer Offline
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Registered: 11/07/09
Posts: 87
Loc: Khazakstan
 Originally Posted By: Big Johnitalia
I would say that Satanism is very general. Worship yourself as an elevated individual.

How general? The most general that I can imagine is: something relating in a positive way to or with whatever is called 'Satan'. Anti-Satan theology such as is practiced by Christians and Muslims appears to have laid the groundwork for the subversion ideology generation inspiring Satanisms of various and now diversifying kinds. Select the ones you like. Attempting to consecrate any set beyond your preferences seems immensely difficult to do with convincingness given the emphasis on individual choice, sovereignty of will. Each proclamation undermines the LHP and sabotages Satanism in some measure. This may be invited ("What is Satanism?" "What do Satanists believe?" "What does Satan want?" "How are Satanists different than Christians?" etc.) and it may be specified within responses to such queries rather than referring such things to the individual Satanian.

 Originally Posted By: Big Johnitalia
Nature is your sacred ground.

While I find such a stipulation personally valuable, I do not know why all Satanists should. I'd love to hear an argument in support of the axiomatic supposition of this.

 Originally Posted By: Big Johnitalia
Knowledge and do what you will are the only commandments.

'Knowledge' is not a command, though it may be inferred that you're thinking of things like 'study is demanded, not faith!' 'Do what you will' is one of the strangest 'commands' I have yet to encounter. It sets the impressionable and will-less at odds with themselves because it orders you to do what you want, rather than leaving out commands completely. It could be construed that this is the opposite of 'Do NOT do what you want to do (i.e. do what we tell you instead).' yet even this is fraught if one wants to do what one is commanded. Go figure. Why bother with it? It's a Christian/Jewish leftover in need of 'commandments'. Ask also why the need for a list of 'Sins'. Somebody's in search of guidance.

 Originally Posted By: Big Johnitalia
From there you fill in the blanks.

And so the question becomes whether one might 'fill in the blanks' (what blanks? it would be part of the knowledge which might be shared to explain what blanks are ordinarily or conventionally filled in by Satanists of any type, and how) at an earlier stage, ignoring the previous 'commandments' or anything else stipulated as 'fundamental'.

Options include the specificity that I had for you (get something positive to say about Satan and move on from there), what you said about Nature (presumably because "Everything's natural." could be seen as a premise. Is everything ordinary and mundane too? \:\) How far will we slide down into cynical materialism and leave the pragmatic employment of appearance and cognitive tools behind due to our prejudices? What other 'basics' can we identify? Why can't we do without them? I hope you see where I'm going with this. I don't find the 'If you let (any portion) mean anything then it means nothing!' argument persuasive, either, though we should be able to ask 'What makes it Satanism?'.

 Originally Posted By: Big Johnitalia
Research philosophy, and speak with others to help articulate your worldview.

I'll be the Devil's Advocate. Hard core materialists dispute the value of philosophy since it is outmoded and has become the tool of distraction and wasted efforts outside mechanics and derivation of natural principles. Researching it is fruitless, they will tell us. Why should we dispute them? Why shouldn't Satanism be advanced as a rudimentary positive thinking employing the hard sciences and relegating the rest of that 'lesser magic' shenanigans to illusions and social manipulation? Who are we kidding? Why advise our own in deceptive ways? Where's the loyalty? No honor amongst snake oil salespeople?

Ok, granted that that slippery slope is avoided, and philosophy is somehow deemed of some value inside the rational context of Satanity, how much of it and why? Ayn Rand or High Priest and Master LaVey says something is important and we ought to consider it so? I won't follow you there. Philosophy is a HUGE field, extending to numerous cultures, many languages, large swathes of time, religious hooey, undermining silly considerations adverse to the material reality we can discern is useful in technology, and we're supposed to research this morass? I can tell you that I've delved into it a bit and most religious (including Satanists) underestimate it, fail to understand its depth and complexity, and, as is conventional the world over, someone (Randi? Dawkins? Rand? Darwin?) is taken for the Final Answer and allowed to stand in search of a shortcut. And why NOT? At some point one needs to rest upon principles and make PROGRESS, else we'll be stuck in some kind of armchair poser category, dammit! So you tell me what this research should yield and why it ought be profitable, who you think we should start and stop our research with. Some BIBLE?? Puh-LEEZ! LOL

 Originally Posted By: Big Johnitalia
If you ask 10 Satanists what their philosophy is, you will have a lot of common answers.

The first challenge will be identifying who is a Satanist. Then you can ask them point blank "What is your philosophy?" Your selection of the Satanists will likely serve to predispose what answers you will be getting. Choose a satanic Christian and you'll get a hugely different set of responses from the one you choose who is a cynical materialist anti-theist of any stripe. Are there any commonalities amongst those who are not satanic Christians but may be generally (as above) described as Satanists? There is so much emphasis on thinking for yourself and coming up with your own answers that this may be too much to ask for, as you seem to explain here:
 Originally Posted By: Big Johnitalia
However, I bet the differences maybe surprising. Satanism is about individualism to me, and it is up to ourselves to decide what we believe in. We write our own doctrine.

Mapping those differences is in part what I set myself as task. The divergences will not serve the quadrants compared. Why should they? 'One Size Fits All' and 'One True Way' is what I identify as "Right-Hand Path". Solutions that satisfy everybody are as unlikely as Discordian Popes in the Roman Catholic Church. It just ain't happening.

We're left with baggage-language. Doctrine? We write it? Why bother? Why not just wing it?? Isn't that for the inept plebes who just think that they're Satanists but aren't really? C'mon, why not pare this down to the real basics instead and cut with all this Shell Gaming? Will you promote your autodemonology? Will you promote your Euhemerism? Will you promote your Master Bible writer for some reason? Objectivism? Epicureanism? These are just the G(r)eeks!! Will the research need to stem back to Lao, out to Asvaghosa and up to the present? Are you sure you want to bite off this tub of lard? How shall we avoid throwing out the concealed baubles inside it if we change our minds and decide to eject these babies' bathwater?
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#52847 - 04/13/11 02:12 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Japster]
Ghostly1 Offline
member


Registered: 04/10/11
Posts: 147
Loc: NY
Ive read both the Satanic Bible, and the Satanic Rituals. I know Im Atheistic Satanism all the way. Simply put I cannot believe in a "living" devil when there is no god either. No heaven or hell. If man is the animal we know him for, we are no better off when we die then the animals we eat for food. I know my life is my one gift to get it right, and do what I can while I walk and breathe air.

I was on YouTube recently and someone was trying to say that Anton LaVey was hiding certain truths about the path of Satanism leading to a true Lucifer. Which if anyone read and understood the Books he wrote would know that is wholly contradictory, and would make him a liar. Accusing him of Theistic undertones for his own personal gain is against everything I have come to learn about Satanism as a whole. Its a shame after so many years people will spread rumors and lies which are easily wiped away with the truth. Whats more shameful is the ones who believe it all to be the truth.

Im off to order more books from Amazon.

Ghost
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#53244 - 04/21/11 01:36 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Morgan]
j75 Offline
lurker


Registered: 04/21/11
Posts: 1
I lean more towards laveyan Satanism since it emphasizes symbolic access to the dark side of human nature through the concept term Satan. Traditionalist assume the literal existence of satan by reinterprating the christian tradition in reverse.Its not that I presume some form of intelligence transcendant of our own as utter lie. Its just that we ought to be more critical of the supernatural and not be gullible by accepting totally any faith that isn't tangible.
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#61589 - 11/19/11 01:34 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: j75]
LeftHandonFeet Offline
member


Registered: 11/05/11
Posts: 109
On the topic of LaVeyan Satanism versus traditional Satanism, lets keep in mind that there are numerous paths and systems through which one can call themselves a Satanist. That of course leads us to the question- "what is the definition of a Satanist?". Very ambigious answer here.
Some we may dub Satanists do not care for the title, according to a definition we have learned or derived. Prime example: certain theistic Satanists. Yaradanists have a much more innocent or holy view of Satan.
While its true that many professed Satanists over the years have made a mockery of Yardanists view of Satan, and I can most certainly agree from a Yardanist standpoint, I always remind myself that LaVeyan Satanism does not oppose viewing Satan as god. Afterall, look through the Enochian Keys and you will see clearly the mindset of a theistic Satanist and not one who views Satan as an archetype. Granted I understand very well the purpose of Satan as an archetype, I do side with Yardanists on the argument that many LaVeyan Satanists use Satan as an archetype for convenience sakes and tarnish the holy name of Satan. Al-Jilwah and other scriptures of Yardanist/Yazidi origin still hold great prominence and importance in the Earth and their truths hold in place all across the broad spectrum of The Left Hand Path. I myself hold The Black Book of Satan very dear to heart- its promises are very unusually sacred to me and the words everlasting. No The Satanic Bible did not replace The Black Book of Satan, nor was that LaVey's intentions. LaVey revealed the common threads in all humans that were carnal and allowed man to rejoice in his self-emancipation. This explains why Satanism became so popular due to him- he understood the hypocrisy and reasoning behind Satan Hatin very unusually well and took upon himself to do the dirty deed of lifting a worldwide blanket of false conviction that causes people to be timid to be Left Handed and unafraid to live a life exemplary toward this.
Gnosticism as a Black Magician can be very proficient and has been proven ideal for masses of people throughout history- I will say to each his own in the topic of Gnostic versus Theistic Satanism. In fact it is quite possible to practice gnostic principles while holding the souls disposition of a thesitic Satanist.
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"I’m just another hardline psuedo-statistic
Can you feel this?" Slipknot - The Blister Exists


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#61614 - 11/19/11 11:51 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: LeftHandonFeet]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1640
Loc: Orlando, FL
 Quote:
Some we may dub Satanists do not care for the title, according to a definition we have learned or derived. Prime example: certain theistic Satanists. Yaradanists have a much more innocent or holy view of Satan.


It is problematic to call Yazid/Sufi/Yardan believers "theistic", since Shaitan/Melek-Taus is considered to be either an angel or djinn... not gods. And even though they may regard the title "Satan" as being true, fundamental importance is placed on native names such as Melek Taus. So calling them "Satanists", or referring to the Book of Revelation as "the Black Book of Satan", are Western misnomers at best.

And self-professed Satanists will often laud the centrality of "Shaitan" in such religions, but at the expense of God, Michael, Raphael, and other beings also revered by the angelic cults.


Edited by The Zebu (11/19/11 11:53 PM)
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«Recibe, ¡oh Lucifer! la sangre de esta víctima que sacrifico en tu honor.»

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#61625 - 11/20/11 03:41 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Japster]
SatanicMinister Offline
banned
stranger


Registered: 11/05/11
Posts: 9
As a Satanic-agnostic, I choose freely which form of Satanism is 'right' for me based on my own research and experience.
One phrase I have come to hate over the years is "true Satanist", "real Satanist" or anything along those lines. Who is qualified to be arbiter of deciding what is 'real' Satanism ?
Lastly, I don't believe it is even possible to fully define or comprehend Satan. To me, He is a vast force that permeates every element, form of life, happening and/or phenomena in the galaxy and is far too 'large' to be defined or pigeon holed by 'mere mortals.' In any case, best of luck to you \:\)

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#81504 - 10/24/13 02:04 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Morgan]
ms666 Offline
Banned
stranger


Registered: 09/03/13
Posts: 6
I think the same too,just choose which has more sense for u.Listen to yourself,imagine what's the best in your mind.The best will be choose only by you.you have all knowledge to judge by yourself.This is the best advise you must have.If you can't,really I do not know which answer or way to give u.So,try,try and try...you will see by yourself.

D.

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#106206 - 04/08/16 11:30 AM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Japster]
Reverend Graf Offline
lurker


Registered: 03/10/16
Posts: 1
Hail Satan! = Hail Me! simple enough?

Maybe you missed our no one-liner policy. Tell you what, take a week off, read what this place is all about, come back and post something more substantial. - Fist

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#106209 - 04/08/16 04:09 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: Reverend Graf]
LordBlyat Offline
member


Registered: 03/21/15
Posts: 118
 Originally Posted By: Reverend Graf
Hail Satan! = Hail Me! simple enough?


LOL... it would be very funny if this Reverend Gaff got banned: we'd have three banned strangers in a row in this thread!

Sadly... it's not going to happen, since the admins here are phantoms and have lost their sense of standards.

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#106237 - 04/10/16 01:31 PM Re: Laveyan Satanism or Traditional Satanism [Re: LordBlyat]
Asmedious Moderator Offline
Moderator
senior member


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 1725
Loc: New York
 Quote:
Sadly... it's not going to happen, since the admins here are phantoms and have lost their sense of standards


Poster banned for six month, for low posting standards!!





Only kidding...sorry, couldn't resist. \:D
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