Page 1 of 2 12>
Topic Options
#91048 - 07/17/14 09:26 AM Karma?
CanisMachina42 Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/10/13
Posts: 1500
Loc: Ca
Karma: It's existence implies there is an inherent value to an action. Good brings good, evil brings evil. It's a mechanism billions swear by, and it screams RHP concept.

Cop-out answer to me is: people create their luck, good or bad, and misfortune is inevitable. Faulty decision making and compulsion are the downfall of many.

I know by the book morally conscious individuals plagued with horrendous luck. They believe it's a test of faith, and discount their own possible hand in it. When hearing this I always catch myself thinking, "well, if you believe that, it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy."

--Pause--

The skeptic in me explains this away as the repressed and subconscious mind infecting decision making. If someone is programmed to believe "what goes around comes around" they may be more inclined to sabotage themselves per preexisting belief of its inevitability.

So what is it? The acausal effect from a conscious projection, the cosmic equalizer, or a psychological deception?

Is it just another a pattern seen in chaos - people instinctively attributing their luck to some grand design, nothing more than magical answers for mundane questions.


Edited by CanisMachina42 (07/17/14 09:31 AM)
_________________________
32.6
-117.1
Sea level
11:56 PM July, 1st 2019
Wrote Signature

Top
#91049 - 07/17/14 09:40 AM Re: Karma? [Re: CanisMachina42]
Fnord Offline
senior member


Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 2092
Loc: Texas
I see it as something more mechanical.

Do wrong to someone and it brings you into focus for them (and likely their friends/family etc) to direct their ire upon you.

When you have people actively seeking to fuck you up a way is generally found (in my experience).

This could also be linked to the 'force in nature' thread. I think many would argue that the universe can be called upon to deliver results.

Karma suggests an undirected force rooted in morality.

I would suggest a more directed force rooted in anger/vengeance.
_________________________
From the ashes arisen

Top
#91050 - 07/17/14 10:12 AM Re: Karma? [Re: CanisMachina42]
SIN3 Offline
stalker


Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 7190
Loc: Virginia
 Originally Posted By: CanisMachina42
Karma: It's existence implies there is an inherent value to an action.


To dumb it down a whole lot, I thought the way it was expressed by Rama-Kandra in the film The Matrix: "What I am here to do." sums it up rather nicely.

For example, a Serial Killer's Karma is to kill. It has nothing to do with what is good/evil or right/wrong.

 Quote:


Good brings good, evil brings evil. It's a mechanism billions swear by, and it screams RHP concept.


Well, that's because Eastern thought doesn't translate well in the west. It's usually reduced to: "What comes around, goes around." or "Karma is a Bitch"; I find this to be a gross misinterpretation of what Karma actually is.

 Quote:


Cop-out answer to me is: people create their luck, good or bad, and misfortune is inevitable. Faulty decision making and compulsion are the downfall of many.


Sure it is, people always need to blame something. To blame 'evil' for the Killer's Karma is just lazy.

 Quote:


I know by the book morally conscious individuals plagued with horrendous luck. They believe it's a test of faith, and discount their own possible hand in it. When hearing this I always catch myself thinking, "well, if you believe that, it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy."


Something like this. Belief definitely plays a role in how people interpret things. If say, you believed the Killer had an abusive up-bringing, then it's easy to just blame his care-givers and the environment. It's a lot more work to see his Karma.

--Pause--

 Quote:

The skeptic in me explains this away as the repressed and subconscious mind infecting decision making. If someone is programmed to believe "what goes around comes around" they may be more inclined to sabotage themselves per preexisting belief of its inevitability.


It's so often the case but it's a bit more complex than that. If say, I believed that I was getting my come uppings for something I did, then it's just confirmation bias, i.e. If I do 'x' then 'y' will happen. When I see 'y' happen, it would be misapprehension to consider it my Karma.

 Quote:


So what is it? The acausal effect from a conscious projection, the cosmic equalizer, or a psychological deception?


If we go with the very simplified version of it: "What I am here to do." Then it really has nothing to do with cause/effect. The Serial Killer kills because that is what he is here to do. Reasons/justifications can be suspended to see his role in the grand scheme of things.

 Quote:

Is it just another a pattern seen in chaos - people instinctively attributing their luck to some grand design, nothing more than magical answers for mundane questions.


Randomness can be perplexing to a lot of people, they look for the reasons. "The Killer kills to satisfy his impulses" or "The Killer kills because he has something broken in his psyche."

That would be like seeing the evil in a predator killing its prey. The Lion's Karma in the grand scheme of things has nothing to do with come backs, right, wrong, good or evil. The Lion does what it is here to do.

_________________________
SINJONES.com

Top
#91051 - 07/17/14 10:37 AM Re: Karma? [Re: SIN3]
CanisMachina42 Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/10/13
Posts: 1500
Loc: Ca
 Quote:
Well, that's because Eastern thought doesn't translate well in the west.

When deciding what interpretation to use I went for the more popular version. It seemed to be the most common trait among contemporary definitions, and was in line with my concept of karma.

Jainism had the most interesting version:

"a mechanism that makes us thoroughly experience the themes of our life"
_________________________
32.6
-117.1
Sea level
11:56 PM July, 1st 2019
Wrote Signature

Top
#91052 - 07/17/14 10:51 AM Re: Karma? [Re: CanisMachina42]
SIN3 Offline
stalker


Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 7190
Loc: Virginia
I took this from the Wiki:

 Quote:
Karma: Human moral actions form the basis of the transmigration of the soul (jīva). The soul is constrained to a cycle of rebirth, trapped within the temporal world (saṃsāra), until it finally achieves liberation (mokṣa). Liberation is achieved by following a path of purification.


If we walk it back to the idea of Dukkha (attachment), then "What a Jainist is here to do" is to liberate oneself from Dukkha.

'Attachment' is the best English translation we have to go on but even that isn't meticulous enough to understanding it in its native tongue. Some reduce it to'Suffering' but that's not quite it either.

Language can often be a barrier. I don't know if you recall the essay Beast Xeno penned but it describes this very thing in The Insidious Way. To jog your memory a bit, he told a personal anecdote of a business associate's honeymoon. How irritated he was that his new bride spent over an hour on the phone with her mother. What it boiled down to, is that it was her first airplane ride and there is no term in Tagalog for 'Airplane'. It took her 45 minutes to describe it to her mother and even then, there's no guarantee she would understand it.

The same applies to Dukkha and Karma.
_________________________
SINJONES.com

Top
#91054 - 07/17/14 11:00 AM Re: Karma? [Re: CanisMachina42]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2721
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
When I once asked my Italian-American father about "karma", he answered, "Tit for tat."

This was confusing, so I asked him to elaborate. He said, "Let the other guy have all the little tats, and keep the big tits for yourself."

Seems like a profound metaphysical principle to me.
_________________________
Michael A. Aquino

Top
#91056 - 07/17/14 11:26 AM Re: Karma? [Re: CanisMachina42]
Caladrius Offline
member


Registered: 07/25/09
Posts: 334
Loc: SoCal
 Originally Posted By: CanisMachina42
Karma: It's existence implies there is an inherent value to an action. Good brings good, evil brings evil. It's a mechanism billions swear by, and it screams RHP concept.



Your understanding of "Karma" [Sanskrit] actually is aligned with how it is understood in Brahminical [Hindu] world-model/view.

The Brahminical world-model takes it a step further. What bad deeds you do in this life time determines the life you will live in the next life. And so, the Shudra and untouchables of the Caste system deserve their lot in life because of Karma \:\)

On the other hand, Kamma [Pali] as used and expounded by the Buddha means something quite different than the Brahminical model.

In very ancient times, the word Karma had an ordinary non-spiritualized meaning.

The root of the word is "Ka/Kar" which means "To Work/Labor," and still means such in my other language.

Before it was spiritualized, Karma as a word, meant "To Build." And so you have the deity Vishvakarman who is the "Great Architect" of the Universe. Where the word "Karman/Kamman" means a Builder/Mason/Architect.

The Pali word Kamma develops from this meaning of Karma.

In Buddhism "Kamma" means what physical labor/effort you have put into the Causal System of the world.

A causal system - if we are actually using the mechanical meaning of the word - means a system which outputs something if something as been inputted. A snack vending machine is a causal system. You put in a dollar, and you get your dollar's worth.

So when as an architect you put in shitty work in building a temple or structure, the outcome - your end result - will be a shitty temple and structure. That's Kamma according to the Buddha. Whose fault is it if the finished temple is shitty? Your own fault because you are the architect: it's your own shitty work that built it.

An example of Kamma [input] & Vipaka [Fruit]: Let's say you have a job, and you get paid every second Friday. You spend all your paycheck the next day clubbing. When it's time to pay rent you have no money left.

The condition of having no money to pay rent which you now experience in that example is the Vipaka - End Result - of your own Kamma [labor/effort]. That's Kamma.

This type of Kamma is called "Kamma-Akosala" meaning Nonconstructive-Labor, or Unproductive-Building.

Another example of Kamma and Vipaka is when you dedicate several years at a college learning a skill, and years later you end up with a nice paying career. The career you have manifested is your Vipaka: the End Result of your own input years back [going to college].

This type of Kamma is called "Kamma-Kosala" meaning Constructive-Labor of Productive-Building.

As far as Kamma goes, there is no mystical or divine principle in that makes it work. It's just how the world works: according to causal mechanics... plant a seed in the ground, and if the conditions are right, it will grow. That's causal mechanics.

See link for further reading on causal system: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causal_system


Edited by Caladrius (07/17/14 11:35 AM)
_________________________
Chloe 352

Top
#91057 - 07/17/14 05:16 PM Re: Karma? [Re: CanisMachina42]
Czereda Offline
senior member


Registered: 03/14/11
Posts: 2116
Loc: Poland
 Quote:
I know by the book morally conscious individuals plagued with horrendous luck. They believe it's a test of faith, and discount their own possible hand in it. When hearing this I always catch myself thinking, "well, if you believe that, it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy."


Your misfortune can be the result of the whole chain of bad decisions made during some period of time or throughout your whole life. Then we can say that you reap what you sow. However, some things in life do not depend on you. Sometimes, shit just happens, like tsunami in India or Japan. Believe it or not, we are not the masters of the Universe.

 Quote:
Good brings good, evil brings evil.


If you go around pissing people off left and right, sooner or later someone will teach you a lesson. And some lessons can be taught only once. It's naive though to expect that people will be kind to you just because you are kind to them. If someone wants to abuse or harm you, being nice doesn't pay off.
_________________________
Anna Czereda
Crazy Cat Lady

Top
#91064 - 07/18/14 12:48 PM Re: Karma? [Re: Czereda]
SIN3 Offline
stalker


Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 7190
Loc: Virginia
This thread inspired a blog. Karmic repercussions are often assumed to be tied to causal events. Good begets good, evil begets evil. What about self-begot, self-made?

I mean, what are we talking about here? Satanism or something else?

Again, critical analysis for discernment.

From your own point of view and as an observer, can't you tell the difference between a person who gets it and a person just misappropriating ideas stemming from their own confusion?

I mean, you must be interested in this stuff for a reason, right Ms. Czereda?
_________________________
SINJONES.com

Top
#91080 - 07/20/14 01:25 PM Re: Karma? [Re: SIN3]
NightmareMachine Offline
stranger


Registered: 05/25/14
Posts: 30
Loc: United States
I tend to look at this from the western outgrowth of the Proto Indo-European religion. What turned into Vedism then Hinduism and Buddhism in the East became the Germanic and Celtic religions in the west.

Looking at the concept from the Norse Cult of Odin (the LHP expression of the Nordic spirituality), we have the concept of Orlog. Orlog comes from Ur-Lag, or "First Law", a law even the gods are subject to. To put it simply, it's cause and effect, and in the Norse view it operates within the lifetime, and across lifetimes. In other words, it's not just something that affects the next life.

However, you have to realize that what YOU do, is not the sum total of the causes and effects in your life. It would only be so if you were the only conscious entity in existence, but you are not. Let's drop the "good" and "bad" because they carry too much moralistic baggage, and use "beneficial" and "detrimental" instead.

Doing things that are beneficial does not always beget beneficial things coming to you and vice-versa. For instance, let's say you do something very beneficial to others and help clear people from the rubble of a fallen structure. At the end of the day, you gwt robbed and beaten. According to the simplistic "fluffy bunny" view of karma, you should have had nothing but rainbows and puppies shit on you. But the EFFECT of your beneficial behavior was that something detrimental happened to you, because that beneficial behavior put you in the position to be victimized. It was cause and effect, but you weren't the sole cause of the robbery, the person who decided to take the detrimental (to you) action of robbery had a hand in it.

Then to this he add the concept of Hammingja. Hamminja is typically translated "luck", but the modern version of luck as random chance in your favor doesn't really cut it. It's better seen as "personal power", and is linked to Orlog. If you come into this world a member of say, a poor family whose parents can win for losing, you entered with weak Hammingja. However, Hammingja is a part of your own soul-complex and is something you can modify.

Through various processes of physical mental and soul training, you can increase your Hammingja. Ever notice people who seem to be Mr Teflon -- nothing sticks to them? They can walk through the shitstorm and not get a drop on them? Or people say "There's just something about them"? Strong Hammingja.

This strong Hammingja can be used to change one's Orlog. There is still cause and effect, but you have essentially more say in it.

Let's go back to our previous example. You go and help the victims of a structure failure. You leave at the same time as the previous example, but instead of weak Hammingja, you have moderate Hammingja. You get that hair standing up on your neck to warn of the impending attack, and you deal with the attack -- in whatever manner -- and it's YOU that walks away. If you have strong Hammingja, you may never get attacked in the first place. The would-be robbers simply forgo the attack. Could be they sense you know something they don't, they sense a stronger predator, however you want to put it. The Orlog of your beneficial act still put you in the same place to have a detrimental act perpetrated on you, but your Hammingja modified the Orlog, such that the Orlog of being in that place was to walk out safely, rather than get attacked.

This is a complex subject that doesn't translate well from any of the original languages. But the typical view of "Karma's going to bite you in the butt", is simply a rather pathetic attempt by a weak person to lay a curse on someone and does not represent the actual concept in the least.

Top
#91082 - 07/20/14 01:34 PM Re: Karma? [Re: NightmareMachine]
SIN3 Offline
stalker


Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 7190
Loc: Virginia
 Quote:
However, you have to realize that what YOU do, is not the sum total of the causes and effects in your life.


Agreed.

My understanding of Orlog is more of a primal law, vs. First Law, which might imply other concepts not even remotely related (such as morality).

Primal Law, is more like "What you are here to Do" vs. "What you do will come back to you across many lives." Juxtaposed with Wyrd, it's more like "The Serial Killer Kills, and will keep killing until he becomes something other than a Killer." Until his Wyrd changes by deliberate work (hence the qualifying factor of LHP).

Agree or disagree?

_________________________
SINJONES.com

Top
#91085 - 07/20/14 03:11 PM Re: Karma? [Re: SIN3]
NightmareMachine Offline
stranger


Registered: 05/25/14
Posts: 30
Loc: United States
Wyrd is the Anglo-Saxon version of Urd, the eldest Norn who oversees Orlog. Wyrd and Orlog are the same.

"Primal Law, is more like "What you are here to Do"" more of the concept of Dharma than Karma.

In the Norse, this is tied to awakening and "marrying" one's Fylgja or valkyrie. Without awakening and becoming one with the Fylgja one cannot attain knowledge of their Dharma which is determined by teh Higher Self, or Wod self which never fully leaves Asgard. The Fylgja acts as intermediary between the Self and Higher Self, eventually forming the bond of the Ek, sort of replacement body for the lich (physical body) which is non-physical, wherein all of the parts of the soul-complex are present and aware. It is a sort of evolution of the Self. Once the culmination of the evolution within the physical body can go no further, this attainment of a new form of being, and Alf or Dis (female) is born, and begins their evolution in that state.

It is a continuation of the cycle or Arising, Becoming, Passing Away to New Arising.

Top
#91095 - 07/21/14 01:29 AM Re: Karma? [Re: NightmareMachine]
Naama Offline
member


Registered: 07/23/12
Posts: 318
Loc: NewYork
Dharma - is simply an ADEQUACY. According to environment, social role, etc...

Karma - the next word for anyone who ever stumbled upon this concept - should be SATURN. He rules over it (karma, and he is the most evil planet of them all...
The way to trick him (or satisfy), in order to ease your karma - is to use black colored things on Saturday...

What is Karma - simply... The perfect example in my understanding would be "a New Years decision" - to keep right diet, to exercise. AND THAN SUDDENLY IN FEW DAYS your own laziness comes along and your returning "to your good old self".
That's how Saturn perverts your mind to get you.
_________________________
http://i57.tinypic.com/2j498ih.jpg

Top
#91098 - 07/21/14 04:59 AM Re: Karma? [Re: NightmareMachine]
SIN3 Offline
stalker


Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 7190
Loc: Virginia
Dharma, in the context of the Serial Killer, is just the constant state of Wyrd/Karma. In layman's terms, Dharma is the Killer's bedrock.

The Poetic Eddas take all the concepts the Norse people were exposed to and establish Retcon. Nearly every culture has a story to articulate these concepts. This is why they too have a cycle of Becoming.

The archetype of Loki is necessary in the schema to point out obvious pitfalls as well as stir in a bit of chaos to strengthen that bedrock.
_________________________
SINJONES.com

Top
#91101 - 07/21/14 10:01 AM Re: Karma? [Re: Naama]
Czereda Offline
senior member


Registered: 03/14/11
Posts: 2116
Loc: Poland
 Quote:
Karma - the next word for anyone who ever stumbled upon this concept - should be SATURN. He rules over it (karma, and he is the most evil planet of them all...


I heard the most evil planet of all is Venus because she's a female and as every female she suffers from pathological jealousy. Most of the time, she's jealous of Mercury, because he's closer to Sun than her, but she's getting on other planets' nerves as well so everybody in our Solar System has enough of this stupid bitch.

She vents her frustration on earthly women making them fall in love with silly guys. Of course, when the romantic love wears off, the poor women regret their terrible mistake. And then Venus laughs...Mwahahaha!!!

The only way to stay safe is to become fat and ugly. Then she might leave you alone, though there is no 100% guarantee you'll be totally safe. Some dudes can have a peculiar sense of aesthetics. Moreover, all cats look the same in the dark.
_________________________
Anna Czereda
Crazy Cat Lady

Top
Page 1 of 2 12>


Moderator:  SkaffenAmtiskaw, fakepropht, TV is God, Woland, Asmedious, Fist 
Hop to:

Generated in 0.033 seconds of which 0.011 seconds were spent on 29 queries. Zlib compression disabled.