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#19967 - 02/08/09 02:19 PM Re: Are you a Satanist in public [Re: Dimitri]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
LOL! When I got started in Satanism, there WERE NO online boards. We had pens and paper... stamps... it was a dark and mysterious time. Then came the dinosaurs.

When I became involved with the Church of Satan, it was through contact with my Agent, Reverend Pierre Raguet who served as a sort of Mentor, there to answer any questions I might have. Then I underwent a long period of personal study, eventually becoming an Agent myself, then chapel master of the Melek Taus Chapel (this was in a "no grotto" period of Church development). I was very active locally, was in the news several times in my town in California, openly Satanist in the military, and then, when LaVey decided that he thought I might be a good addition to the staff, they called me.
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Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#19970 - 02/08/09 02:42 PM Re: Are you a Satanist in public [Re: Dimitri]
Gratikus Offline
pledge


Registered: 05/24/08
Posts: 61
>>Gratikus; choose your words a bit wisely.
At first you were using the word "mentoring".
The description in your last post is just mere "guiding".
Hell of a difference between those 2. <<

The definition of mentoring:

To serve as a trusted counselor or teacher to (another person).

How is the definition different than what I proposed? Please explain.

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#19971 - 02/08/09 02:49 PM Re: Are you a Satanist in public [Re: Gratikus]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3151
I already replied it.
 Quote:
Actually, I knew this already, but I don't like to call it mentoring. I prefer the word "guiding". Mentoring to me is more like: "These are the facts, this are the proofs, learn it well and keep it in mind". While uphere I only give my opinion which isn't always build on foundations.

To get things straight: mentoring is teaching a subject by showing facts to someone without your opinion given.

Guiding is just giving advice or giving information from your own personal view about a certain subject. Guiding isn't necesarry based on facts, while mentoring is.
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#19980 - 02/08/09 04:40 PM Re: Are you a Satanist in public [Re: Dimitri]
Gratikus Offline
pledge


Registered: 05/24/08
Posts: 61
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
I already replied it.
 Quote:
Actually, I knew this already, but I don't like to call it mentoring. I prefer the word "guiding". Mentoring to me is more like: "These are the facts, this are the proofs, learn it well and keep it in mind". While uphere I only give my opinion which isn't always build on foundations.

To get things straight: mentoring is teaching a subject by showing facts to someone without your opinion given.

Guiding is just giving advice or giving information from your own personal view about a certain subject. Guiding isn't necesarry based on facts, while mentoring is.


So if an adult mentors a child that has no parents, as in a big brother program, is the adult simply spurting out scientific, mathematical and or historical facts? Are you seriously implying that mentoring has absolutely nothing to do with personal values being passed from one person to another?

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#19981 - 02/08/09 04:47 PM Re: Are you a Satanist in public [Re: Dimitri]
Gratikus Offline
pledge


Registered: 05/24/08
Posts: 61
Would like to add...

You can't just tell someone they are wrong based on your own personal re-definition of words. Just because you don't "like a word," doesn't change the universal definition of that word. We don't live in your world, we live in the real world.


Edited by Gratikus (02/08/09 04:54 PM)

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#19988 - 02/08/09 07:41 PM Re: Are you a Satanist in public [Re: Gratikus]
Zoid Offline
member


Registered: 01/24/09
Posts: 109
Loc: USA - New Jersey
 Originally Posted By: Gratikus
>>1. Do you proselytize on behalf of Satanism?<<

No. I'm just open about Satanism and then I take it from there. One is either a Satanist, or they are or not. I don't really try to “convert” anyone, if that is what you mean. Unlike most other religions, Satanism is sort of auto-proselytizing. Put Satanism out there, and the right people will be attracted to it, no screaming necessary.


I agree with your perspective. Satan, to me, is an archetype of the collective unconscious, and this archetype represents Id plus Ego victorious over Superego. I discovered Satanism when I was in the throes of inner turmoil, my Superego fighting for dear life, and my Id and Ego unleashing every weapon in their arsenal. I suspect I wasn't terribly unique in this. Anyone engaged in the same conflict would probably be steel to the open Satanist's magnet.

 Originally Posted By: Gratikus

>>2. Do you do other activities that might cause you to be immortalized, and if so, what would those be? <<

I'm going to start a Satanic group here in Jersey, called “The Power of Satan,” who's focus is all about older Satanist mentoring younger Satanist. My ultimate dream is to one day attain enough money to build an above ground Satanic church, that is for both overt and covert modern Satanist.


I have a modified version of your vision that I will offer you for consideration. You triggered this in me. I had never given a moment's thought to such a thing until reading your post.

You could build a Satanic chapel. What I mean by this is a building with a library, an indoor space for quiet introspection, an outdoor space for quiet introspection, and a small menagerie of beasts such as snakes, vultures, feral cats, tarantulas, piranhas, and others of the same ilk. The outdoor introspection space could have statues representing each of the seven deadly sins, or something else along those lines. The indoor introspection space would make intense use of color, especially black, red, yellow, and white, painted on the walls, ceiling, and floor, and also streaming randomly on the screen of a very large, wall-mounted TV. The rule throughout the chapel, ruthlessly enforced, would be absolute silence.

 Originally Posted By: Gratikus

I truly believe that what makes people historical are mostly events that are beyond their control. If you look at most great historical figures, you will see that they became great out of chance. Sure, they had the courage to do whatever it was that they did that made them historical, but some random event/challenge gave them the CHANCE to be historical. I believe my random test will come one day, when I least expect it.


I have heard it said that luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity. I agree with this statement, and I think it resonates with your comments above. Without preparation, the opportunity might be lost. Without opportunity, the preparation might never be utilized. Put the two together and the strands of time get threaded into a tapestry of unexpected new patterns.

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#20036 - 02/09/09 05:06 AM Re: Are you a Satanist in public [Re: Jake999]
Gratikus Offline
pledge


Registered: 05/24/08
Posts: 61
 Originally Posted By: Jake999
LOL! When I got started in Satanism, there WERE NO online boards. We had pens and paper... stamps... it was a dark and mysterious time. Then came the dinosaurs.

When I became involved with the Church of Satan, it was through contact with my Agent, Reverend Pierre Raguet who served as a sort of Mentor, there to answer any questions I might have. Then I underwent a long period of personal study, eventually becoming an Agent myself, then chapel master of the Melek Taus Chapel (this was in a "no grotto" period of Church development). I was very active locally, was in the news several times in my town in California, openly Satanist in the military, and then, when LaVey decided that he thought I might be a good addition to the staff, they called me.


Hey Jake, nothing but respect over here man. It's an honor to be a part of the same discussion as one of the earliest practitioners of my faith. Surely you, of all people, can appreciate the group/social offline aspect of Satanism. I think most Satanist today are kind of like...internet hermits, and kind of feel like Satanism should be nothing more than a religion of, well, internet hermits. This is not to say that Satanism is meant to be a support group, not at all, but there is a definite power in being amongst your own kind in person. I think the power of group ritual is something that goes over the heads of the new (my) generation of Satanist.

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#20050 - 02/09/09 10:52 AM Re: Are you a Satanist in public [Re: Gratikus]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3151
 Quote:
You can't just tell someone they are wrong based on your own personal re-definition of words. Just because you don't "like a word," doesn't change the universal definition of that word. We don't live in your world, we live in the real world.

The "real world" is made up of different worlds accorded by different people. Don't be stupid by saying there is only one "real".

 Quote:
So if an adult mentors a child that has no parents, as in a big brother program, is the adult simply spurting out scientific, mathematical and or historical facts? Are you seriously implying that mentoring has absolutely nothing to do with personal values being passed from one person to another?

I am serious about the fact mentoring is just passing out plain facts without emotional/personal value, PERIOD.
A parent or someone who adopts a child doesn't mentor it. The person(s) are educating it. And education is the combination of mentoring and guiding.

Words are powerfull tools, one may know a lot of words but that doesn't imply you know how to use and place them to get the desired effect.
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Ut vivat, crescat et floreat

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#20051 - 02/09/09 11:57 AM Re: Are you a Satanist in public [Re: Gratikus]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
I definitely understand what you mean, and understand where you're coming from. Having been both solitary in my practice of Satanism, and having been involved in group settings, each has its benefits and its drawbacks,

Many people need the solidity of that group ritual, even if only once. Psychological, maybe, but it reinforces that we're not alone, and that that are indeed others who feel like we do (play it Frampton), and that alone makes our time in the relative solitude of existence just a little more bearable. That's the main reason that people opt to join the Church of Satan, rather than just following its tenets and BEING Satanists. The closest to reality of kinship they may ever get might be that little red card and the Baphomet dangling under their shirt, but it's a touchstone of solidity... it's real. There is a sense of belonging, and knowing that somewhere out there, there is a reality that goes beyond the pie in the sky wishfulness of an "afterlife religion,"

There's the old line from Matthew 18:20 that says, "For where two or three are gathered in my name, there I am among them." In this case, it's a religious feeling... you are not alone. But it's also a human feeling... you are not alone... as in when Tom Joad speaks his farewell words in Steinbeck's East of Eden, ""I'll be ever'where--wherever you look. Wherever they's a fight so hungry people can eat, I'll be there. Wherever they's a cop beatin' up a guy, I'll be there. If Casy knowed, why, I'll be in the way guys yell when they're mad an'--I'll be in the way kids laugh when they're hungry an' they know supper's ready. An' when our folks eat the stuff they raise an' live in the houses they build--why, I'll be there. See?""

And it's ok that people who've never stood before that altar facing East can't understand it. It's almost futile to even help them try. It's something that has to be experienced and it's something that has to be felt and it's something that psychodramatically, you have to surrender your higher thinking self to, in order to feel and better understand your inner animal. That sticks with you. That never goes away.

LOGICALLY, I know there's no NEED to be with others. I can be as isolative as the next guy. PSYCHOLOGICALLY, I know that there's a reason TO BE with others, and I can be as socially cohesive as the next guy. The key is in that WE HAVE THAT CHOICE. When someone else tells you you're wrong, they're right, and that's the way it is, what do they know? How do they know it? Who gave them the right to decide your life and its meanings, its wants and its desires?

We long ago decided that we don't take "Thou shalt" too well. But it seems that a lot of people need to tell others where they have to be wrong in order to make themselves feel "Right." How small is a person's world when they think that their philosophy is all inclusive of that of others?
_________________________
Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#20053 - 02/09/09 12:23 PM Re: Are you a Satanist in public [Re: Dimitri]
Gratikus Offline
pledge


Registered: 05/24/08
Posts: 61
>> The "real world" is made up of different worlds accorded by different people. Don't be stupid by saying there is only one "real".<<

If there is no one real world then show me a group of different individuals who can walk off of a clip and not have their brains universally splattered?

Also, if there is no universal agreement, then why are you debating me on the universal meaning behind mentoring?


Edited by Gratikus (02/09/09 12:25 PM)

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#20054 - 02/09/09 12:30 PM Re: Are you a Satanist in public [Re: Gratikus]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3151
If their brains are splattered:
Are they still individuals? They don't seem to have the signs of being individuals anymore.

And I was speaking metaforical. Real world, as you perceive it now, the actions made within by people are composed of their individual worlds. There are some universal laws which we all are binded to, but descisions, actions, words, thoughts and events within the "real world" are only there/happening because some people thought it might work within their world.

 Quote:
Also, if there is no universal agreement, then why are you debating me on the universal meaning behind mentoring?

Well, you almost gave the answer: "because there is no universal agreement". Only reduced here to: "I simply don't agree with you".

You don't seem to like it when some critics are given..


Edited by Dimitri (02/09/09 12:43 PM)
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#20058 - 02/09/09 02:26 PM Re: Are you a Satanist in public [Re: Jake999]
Gratikus Offline
pledge


Registered: 05/24/08
Posts: 61
>>We long ago decided that we don't take "Thou shalt" too well. But it seems that a lot of people need to tell others where they have to be wrong in order to make themselves feel "Right." How small is a person's world when they think that their philosophy is all inclusive of that of others?<<


Another unwanted crowd that Satanism tends to attract, aside from the mentally ill, are nihilist. By its very group ritualistic-design, Satanism is an UPLIFTING religion between its followers. Group Satanic rituals are mostly about other Satanist acting as an unholy pep squad for the forbidden desires of a single Satanist in the group. This totally goes over the head of most internet-based Satanist, who are actually nothing more than nihilist. These people totally suck the fun out of Satanism any chance they get, and yet they think they are Satanist. The moment a Satanist seeks to tear down another Satanist's dreams is the moment that such a negative Satanist becomes more Christian like. Christians and Nihilist have one thing in common, they both uphold the law of "Thou Shall not," when Satanism is the affirmation of the opposite.

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#20059 - 02/09/09 02:43 PM Re: Are you a Satanist in public [Re: Dimitri]
Fabiano Offline
member


Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
I just want to react on the two last pages of this thread I just read.


I’m quite new to Modern Satanism and I questioned myself about being a Satanist in public. I’m finally a quite opened Satanist. I’m happy to have shared it with my mother, it’s mentioned on my facebook profile, and I have an inverted cross tattoo… But I live in Belgium, next to France who acts like a guardian of separation of church & state and work in a company with a very opened minded “culture”. I think it’s better to act “naturally” in accordance with his views. A little bit like Diogenes of Sinope who practiced the masturbation on the public place because of philosophical views. Satanism (as any other religion or philosophy) is to be lived!

FYI, there is already a thread on mentoring created by Morgan…
It’s always the same in all religions. As the zen proverb says, the master can show the river, but he cannot drink for the disciple.

Discussion about the “word” is a few interest.

Gratikus, I might share with you that feeling about leaving a trace in the History as I’m also personally convinced I’ll leave a trace in the History. It can be viewed as faith. Why not? Faith in my on God…

But I’m against the churches; they always fucked up all religions!

However, I think meeting other Satanists face 2 face has an added value. When communicating via the net you miss all the non verbal communication. The body language, the tone of the voice, the general attitude…
It always useful to meet (virtually or IRL) a “wise” master who will put your views under his fire of scrutiny and his flame is much brighter and hotter than the average… The master mainly “leads by example”…

Finally, I’m happy to see I’m not alone in appreciating silence & introspection \:\)

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#20142 - 02/11/09 10:19 AM Re: Are you a Satanist in public? [Re: Fist]
Wovk76 Offline
stranger


Registered: 01/10/09
Posts: 7
Loc: Italy
I'm between from Old Religion ( not wicca ) and Satanism. I'm sure I'm not cristian but I live in a place where the most of people doesn't understand my belief.
Some years ago I thought is important to learn to people who don't know ( this is for all matter ) after I learnt that more people doesn't want understand but only to know for curiosity and malice and I've seen for 10 people that you meet in your life, 1 maybe can be a good friend, 2 are neutral,1 life there divive or you do not like her and the other 5 become your enemy.
So I think I can't to show my personality to everyone and my religion or philosopy is a part of me.
Sometimes I want to bring my pendant outside my short, but after a I think is only is just a whim.
Two month ago I feel to fat ( I work every day on computers so I don't have more time to move )so I decide to start to run every morning excluse ( saturday and sunday ) I loose 7 Kg = 15,4 lb.
Now I feel well and friends and colleagues asked me how I can loose my weight. Simple ...I want, I can is my philophy! So now they see me in another way.
You can dress all object you want but at your own risk, because you can create enemies around you without understand it.

...I remember when I was you and I dressed Iron Maiden t-shirt!
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You are not stupid...and me too..is my english bad!

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#20143 - 02/11/09 10:47 AM Re: Are you a Satanist in public? [Re: Wovk76]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3151
Wovk76:
Tell me: old religion? What the hell is old religion?
Sumerian beliefs? Egyptian mythology? German mythology? Budhism?
You'll have to be more specific about that part.

Ow, btw since you think Wicca is an "old religion": It merely exists for... let me see... 50-60 years?
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