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#20210 - 02/11/09 10:00 PM Re: Are you a Satanist in public? [Re: Gratikus]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3810
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Why do you care if other people whom you don't even know should be worshiped? Because they apply the title 'Satanist'?

I would think that most of those that can apply that title to themselves in an intellectually honest manner would not want to be worshiped, because of the very nature of what that title means, and what it makes them.

But feel free to continue on your fantastic voyage of pipedreams and idealism \:\)
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#20211 - 02/11/09 10:02 PM Re: Are you a Satanist in public? [Re: Gratikus]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
No. I understood you.

If being idolized by "the herd" is your indulgence, it's enough to make me champion abstention. It's the ultimate lowering of personal standards. To be idolized by the inept and the mediocre is probably about the greatest insult to self that I could imagine,

But it's your life... good luck with it.
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#20220 - 02/11/09 11:02 PM Re: Are you a Satanist in public? [Re: Jake999]
Gratikus Offline
pledge


Registered: 05/24/08
Posts: 61
Some of the greatest and most Satanic men in history have wanted to be idolized by the herd, and they accomplished more than anyone hear could dream of. Anyone who is a student of history can name tons of great leaders and rebels who wanted to be idolized by the herd, and their accomplishments would probably make our lives look like shit.

Satanism is not about everyone having the exact same fantasies, nor is it about giving up on all types of "idealism." If we didn't have "idealism," we'd all be still living in caves. Hell, the very process of Satanism is becoming something greater than what you already are, therefore, Satanism is "idealism" in and of itself. The very fact that there are Satanic sins proves this. The whole notion behind a "sin" is to improve yourself. To come into a better IDEAL of yourself. Like I said, far too many Nihilist in Satanism these days. Nihilism is incompatible with Satanism.


Edited by Gratikus (02/11/09 11:15 PM)

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#20223 - 02/11/09 11:22 PM Re: Are you a Satanist in public? [Re: Gratikus]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1640
Loc: Orlando, FL
True, Satanism does contain some "idealism" insomuch as Satanists strive to become greater than they already are.

But it differs from most idealism in that it is purely individualistic, and not devoted to some pie-in-the-sky goal or "spiritual pipedream". "Idealism" usually refers to some external goal that affects great numbers of people, united for some lofty cause... such as Christianity, Anarchy, World-Peace movements, etc.

It's basically all how you define the word, though. It's not worth nitpicking over.
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#20227 - 02/11/09 11:43 PM Re: Are you a Satanist in public? [Re: The Zebu]
Gratikus Offline
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Registered: 05/24/08
Posts: 61
 Originally Posted By: The Zebu
True, Satanism does contain some "idealism" insomuch as Satanists strive to become greater than they already are.

But it differs from most idealism in that it is purely individualistic, and not devoted to some pie-in-the-sky goal or "spiritual pipedream". "Idealism" usually refers to some external goal that affects great numbers of people, united for some lofty cause... such as Christianity, Anarchy, World-Peace movements, etc.

It's basically all how you define the word, though. It's not worth nitpicking over.


Yes, but to say that "idealism," through and through, is stupid is ridiculous. How many great nations were spawned because some great visionary had an "ideal" of what civilization should be like? And could one of these great civilizations have possibly given birth to the very philosophy of individualism itself? *hint hint*

Beware of "Satanist" who seek to tear down all ideals, because they are really Nihilist and not Satanist. Satanism is the religion of fantasy and magic made real, which, in and of itself, IS IDEALISM IN ACTION.

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#20228 - 02/11/09 11:55 PM Re: Are you a Satanist in public? [Re: Gratikus]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1640
Loc: Orlando, FL
I never said that all idealism is bad.

Idealism is only "bad" when the goal is ridiculously impossible to achieve, or runs contrary to human nature, such as expecting everybody to love their neighbor, or trying to convert the entire world to one religion.

Establishing a nation, spreading ideas, or executing some significant political/cultural revolution would be achievable goals, which many people have accomplished in the past.
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#20232 - 02/12/09 12:13 AM Re: Are you a Satanist in public? [Re: The Zebu]
daevid777 Offline
active member


Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 951
Loc: Hell's Pisshole, Texas
"I'm a dreamin' man... yes, that's my problem... I'll always be a dreamin' man, I don't have to understand... I know it's alright... I'm a dreamin' man... he's got a problem..."

Neil Young.

sorry.
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#20245 - 02/12/09 03:22 AM Re: Are you a Satanist in public? [Re: The Zebu]
Gratikus Offline
pledge


Registered: 05/24/08
Posts: 61
 Originally Posted By: The Zebu
I never said that all idealism is bad.

Idealism is only "bad" when the goal is ridiculously impossible to achieve, or runs contrary to human nature, such as expecting everybody to love their neighbor, or trying to convert the entire world to one religion.

Establishing a nation, spreading ideas, or executing some significant political/cultural revolution would be achievable goals, which many people have accomplished in the past.


I agree, but my comment was more so aimed at Dan Dread, and those who might agree with him.

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#20246 - 02/12/09 04:14 AM Re: Are you a Satanist in public? [Re: Dan_Dread]
Fabiano Offline
member


Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
 Quote:
The entire point of Satanism is that man is God, therefore Satanist should rule the Earth. Thus, the masses should one day worship Satanist as Gods. To me, this would be the ideal destiny of Satanism, and the ultimate paradise of our future descendants.

I think you may be missing something here. The god of autotheism isn't the same concept as the 'gods' of other religions. Satanism does not exalt Satanists as 'gods', but rather that every man is his own 'god', meaning the author of his own fate. Satanism has no destiny but to be put to use by those who have the ability to weild it.

Satanism is a tool, not a cause.


Dan, I totally disagree with Gratikus. I'm my own God and not the God of someone else. As someone else will never be my God.

You told me I'm autotheist and you say god of autotheism isn't the same concept as the 'gods' of other religions.

However, from my "mystical" point of view, the experiences experiences of being in contact with "God" as a Xian or as a Satanist is not very different.
The big difference is how you interpret afterward, this kind of experience.
One said here "how we choose to look at the world, will shape the reality of your world" and I fully agree.

Ah and yes, in my conception Satanism is a tool as well. But I view all religions & philosophies as tools for knowing & bettering myself. I once considered one of them as a cause and I'm not ready to do that same error twice.

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#20250 - 02/12/09 05:34 AM Re: Are you a Satanist in public? [Re: Gratikus]
Zoid Offline
member


Registered: 01/24/09
Posts: 109
Loc: USA - New Jersey
 Originally Posted By: Gratikus
Well, it all depends on what a Satanist's particular ideal of "indulgence" is, and indulgence is the bottom line of Satanism.


Your comment above stopped me in my tracks. After considerable contemplation of it, and especially its ramifications, I have formulated for my own benefit The Three Principles of Prudent Discourse:

----------------------------
1. Don’t encourage a mode of thought that could be turned against you (in a way you fear) by a logically consistent thinker.

2. Don’t encourage a mode of thought if the fact you encouraged it could be turned against you (in a way you fear) by the forces of order or the forces of chaos.

3. Don’t encourage a mode of thought if it sanctions behaviors you hate, and don’t make the mistake of thinking your hate must be logically defensible.
----------------------------

By way of example, encouraging an indulgence in making sandwiches out of bread and human ears would violate all three of the above, and no prudent Satanist will make that mistake.

My reading of LaVey leads me to believe he would agree with all three of the above Principles.


Edited by Zoid (02/12/09 05:39 AM)
Edit Reason: Zoid added the parenthetical "(in a way you fear)" to the first and second Principles.

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#20259 - 02/12/09 09:16 AM Re: Are you a Satanist in public? [Re: Zoid]
Gratikus Offline
pledge


Registered: 05/24/08
Posts: 61
 Originally Posted By: Zoid
 Originally Posted By: Gratikus
Well, it all depends on what a Satanist's particular ideal of "indulgence" is, and indulgence is the bottom line of Satanism.


Your comment above stopped me in my tracks. After considerable contemplation of it, and especially its ramifications, I have formulated for my own benefit The Three Principles of Prudent Discourse:

----------------------------
1. Don’t encourage a mode of thought that could be turned against you (in a way you fear) by a logically consistent thinker.

2. Don’t encourage a mode of thought if the fact you encouraged it could be turned against you (in a way you fear) by the forces of order or the forces of chaos.

3. Don’t encourage a mode of thought if it sanctions behaviors you hate, and don’t make the mistake of thinking your hate must be logically defensible.
----------------------------

By way of example, encouraging an indulgence in making sandwiches out of bread and human ears would violate all three of the above, and no prudent Satanist will make that mistake.

My reading of LaVey leads me to believe he would agree with all three of the above Principles.


>>By way of example, encouraging an indulgence in making sandwiches out of bread and human ears would violate all three of the above, and no prudent Satanist will make that mistake.<<

According to LaVey, with the exception of harming children, a Satanist is free to indulge in whatever he likes, just as long as he takes FULL responsibility for his actions. This also includes eating a sandwich made of bread and human ears.



Edited by Gratikus (02/12/09 09:18 AM)

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#20263 - 02/12/09 12:25 PM Re: Are you a Satanist in public? [Re: Gratikus]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3114
 Quote:
The "Old Religion" is the religion of the italian's witches.

Say no more, without viewing the link I realised what you were talking about.
Should have known since you were from Italy and "Old religion" is a term often used for the Italian "witchery".
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#20264 - 02/12/09 12:34 PM Re: Are you a Satanist in public? [Re: Gratikus]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3114
 Quote:
Beware of "Satanist" who seek to tear down all ideals, because they are really Nihilist and not Satanist. Satanism is the religion of fantasy and magic made real, which, in and of itself, IS IDEALISM IN ACTION.

Nihilist is used to often and within your text a bit bad chosen.
I take down ideals also, does that make me a nihilist? No, because I view things objective and am just pointing out inconsistencies, impossibilities and mistakes. Ideals can be used to achieve things, but nihilistic thinking makes it possible you are not floating in your fantasy and to keep things real.

Satanism to me isn't "fantasy and magic made real". Satanism is about admitting your mistakes and try to solve them, it is about personal development. It also is about you admitting you have desires and the need to fulfill them. The magic part is only psychological help, if knowledge fails and/or for other reasons. In short: admitting you also are "just an animal with needs" with also the strong will to be the greatest in your surroundings. Satanism is about you being the alfa male/female.
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#20268 - 02/12/09 02:31 PM Re: Are you a Satanist in public? [Re: Dimitri]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
I agree with Dimitri here upon the nihilist argument. It feels like a weak defense to avoid criticism on whatever you try to have untouched. What you dream about, and I use dream to describe it because I hardly can take it serious, is open to criticism and if nihilist is the only response you can give, I tend to see similarities with the religious screaming heathen when someone questions those views.

D.

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#20277 - 02/12/09 05:59 PM Re: Are you a Satanist in public? [Re: Gratikus]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3810
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
 Quote:

Some of the greatest and most Satanic men in history have wanted to be idolized by the herd, and they accomplished more than anyone hear could dream of. Anyone who is a student of history can name tons of great leaders and rebels who wanted to be idolized by the herd, and their accomplishments would probably make our lives look like shit.

Do you really believe that people that do 'great' things do so to be idolized? A premeditated plan to gain acclaim? I think that is quite a naive outlook on things. I notice you didn't give any examples.
I don't think there would be very many.

Some people have the capacity to excel, others do not. Do you?




 Quote:
Hell, the very process of Satanism is becoming something greater than what you already are, therefore, Satanism is "idealism" in and of itself.

The very fact that there are Satanic sins proves this.

The whole notion behind a "sin" is to improve yourself.

To come into a better IDEAL of yourself. Like I said, far too many Nihilist in Satanism these days.



I think each of these offered bald faced assertions are bullshit for various reasons. I'd explain why but then again you didn't offer up any support for these assertions, so why should I? ;\)


Please stop speaking for 'Satanists' and trying to define what Satanism is and isn't. You are not qualified.
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