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#20705 - 02/18/09 09:21 AM Re: Are you a Satanist in public? [Re: Gratikus]
joseph oreilly Offline
Incomprehensible--Banned
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Registered: 01/29/09
Posts: 58
 Originally Posted By: Gratikus


Satanism espouses Social Darwinism. Just because one labels themselves a Satanist doesn't mean that they are free from the laws of Social Darwinism. If one Satanist happens to be competing for the same resource as another Satanist, then it's perfectly fine for the superior Satanist to destroy/subdue/edge out the weaker Satanist. In the context of this argument, the resource here is the destiny of mankind itself.


Social Darwinism doesn't work, you'll find Einstein's parents weren't great intellectuals, same could be said for Newton, genetics and intellect are mostly seperate.

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#20711 - 02/18/09 10:01 AM Re: Are you a Satanist in public? [Re: joseph oreilly]
Gratikus Offline
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Registered: 05/24/08
Posts: 61
 Originally Posted By: joseph oreilly
 Originally Posted By: Gratikus


Satanism espouses Social Darwinism. Just because one labels themselves a Satanist doesn't mean that they are free from the laws of Social Darwinism. If one Satanist happens to be competing for the same resource as another Satanist, then it's perfectly fine for the superior Satanist to destroy/subdue/edge out the weaker Satanist. In the context of this argument, the resource here is the destiny of mankind itself.


Social Darwinism doesn't work, you'll find Einstein's parents weren't great intellectuals, same could be said for Newton, genetics and intellect are mostly seperate.


You're thinking of the genetic theory of Social Darwinism, I don't follow that model. My model is more cultural.

Social Darwinism in man is mostly culturally based, and not genetically based. For example, if two children from the same parents are raised in two totally different cultures/environments, one poor and one upper class, the child that is raised in the upper class environment will tend to have a higher IQ than the child born in an impoverished culture. The bottom line is that groups of individuals will compete for limited resources and those groups that have superior cultural habits will edge out their inferior counter parts.

As for genetics and abilities, that is a real wild card, because many of the traits that we have are recessive traits, and therefore they can not be attributed to our immediate parents. Yes, Einstein's parents may not be as bright as him, but his great great great grandfather may have been even brighter.

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#20712 - 02/18/09 10:09 AM Re: Are you a Satanist in public? [Re: Gratikus]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Correct me if I'm wrong and I'm going to write this down as blunt as it is; following what you are saying, we should put the nigger back into his place because surely his culture is inferior to ours?

At least that is how I perceive what you just wrote.

D.

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#20715 - 02/18/09 10:28 AM Re: Are you a Satanist in public? [Re: Gratikus]
joseph oreilly Offline
Incomprehensible--Banned
pledge


Registered: 01/29/09
Posts: 58
 Originally Posted By: Gratikus

You're thinking of the genetic theory of Social Darwinism, I don't follow that model. My model is more cultural.

Social Darwinism in man is mostly culturally based, and not genetically based. For example, if two children from the same parents are raised in two totally different cultures/environments, one poor and one upper class, the child that is raised in the upper class environment will tend to have a higher IQ than the child born in an impoverished culture. The bottom line is that groups of individuals will compete for limited resources and those groups that have superior cultural habits will edge out their inferior counter parts.

As for genetics and abilities, that is a real wild card, because many of the traits that we have are recessive traits, and therefore they can not be attributed to our immediate parents. Yes, Einstein's parents may not be as bright as him, but his great great great grandfather may have been even brighter.


I.Q. can retain a social element, however within your model if indeed two brothers were seperated whos to say that the brother with the higher I.Q. is really any more intelligent simply based on that? the poorer brother could be less intuitive, less socially aware yet he could have developed essential skills through his poverty such as maths from having to value collateral more, which is more applicable to more elements of life, there for not being classically intelligent but simply more gifted in a more important area of human understanding.

I think it's dangerous, self destructive and perverse to value one human being more than another based on cursory perceptions of intellect at one time or another, if man wants to improve humanity, let him improve humanity.

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#20720 - 02/18/09 11:40 AM Re: Are you a Satanist in public? [Re: Diavolo]
Gratikus Offline
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Registered: 05/24/08
Posts: 61
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
Correct me if I'm wrong and I'm going to write this down as blunt as it is; following what you are saying, we should put the nigger back into his place because surely his culture is inferior to ours?

At least that is how I perceive what you just wrote.

D.


No I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying that nurture dictates superiority more so than nature does:

"Give me a dozen healthy infants & my own specific world to bring
them up in, & I'll guarantee to take any one at random & train him to become any type of specialist I might select - doctor, lawyer, artist, merchant, chef & yes, even beggar & thief, regardless of his talents, penchants, tendencies, abilities, vocations, and race of his ancestors."
- John B. Watson, 1924

Cultures are not only transient, in terms of people being able to freely experience them, but they are ever changing as well. That "nigger" could exist in a parallel world in which he was raised in an upper class neighborhood, and he would no longer act or think like a "nigger" anymore.

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#20721 - 02/18/09 11:51 AM Re: Are you a Satanist in public? [Re: joseph oreilly]
Gratikus Offline
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Registered: 05/24/08
Posts: 61
 Originally Posted By: joseph oreilly
 Originally Posted By: Gratikus

You're thinking of the genetic theory of Social Darwinism, I don't follow that model. My model is more cultural.

Social Darwinism in man is mostly culturally based, and not genetically based. For example, if two children from the same parents are raised in two totally different cultures/environments, one poor and one upper class, the child that is raised in the upper class environment will tend to have a higher IQ than the child born in an impoverished culture. The bottom line is that groups of individuals will compete for limited resources and those groups that have superior cultural habits will edge out their inferior counter parts.

As for genetics and abilities, that is a real wild card, because many of the traits that we have are recessive traits, and therefore they can not be attributed to our immediate parents. Yes, Einstein's parents may not be as bright as him, but his great great great grandfather may have been even brighter.


I.Q. can retain a social element, however within your model if indeed two brothers were seperated whos to say that the brother with the higher I.Q. is really any more intelligent simply based on that? the poorer brother could be less intuitive, less socially aware yet he could have developed essential skills through his poverty such as maths from having to value collateral more, which is more applicable to more elements of life, there for not being classically intelligent but simply more gifted in a more important area of human understanding.

I think it's dangerous, self destructive and perverse to value one human being more than another based on cursory perceptions of intellect at one time or another, if man wants to improve humanity, let him improve humanity.


I kind of understand what you are talking about. For example, some people might look at African bush men and laugh at how inferior they appear. Yet, if we were to take the brightest scholar from Harvard university, and drop him off in the Bush man's environment, we would quickly see who is inferior and who is superior as the Harvard scholar dies within days of dehydration.

We can judge inferiority or superiority based on whether or not two individuals (or groups) or competing for the same resource(s) within the same environment. There's nothing dangerous about this line of logic, because it's cold brutal reality.

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#20724 - 02/18/09 12:05 PM Re: Are you a Satanist in public? [Re: Gratikus]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3138
 Quote:
"Give me a dozen healthy infants & my own specific world to bring
them up in, & I'll guarantee to take any one at random & train him to become any type of specialist I might select - doctor, lawyer, artist, merchant, chef & yes, even beggar & thief, regardless of his talents, penchants, tendencies, abilities, vocations, and race of his ancestors."
- John B. Watson, 1924

He could be right, however he seemed to forget some will have a better feeling for it then others. Hell, I can study to become a lawyer but that doesn't make me a better one compared to others who have done the same trajectory as me in time and space...

 Quote:
I kind of understand what you are talking about. For example, some people might look at African bush men and laugh at how inferior they appear. Yet, if we were to take the brightest scholar from Harvard university, and drop him off in the Bush man's environment, we would quickly see who is inferior and who is superior as the Harvard scholar dies within days of dehydration.

We can judge inferiority or superiority based on whether or not two individuals (or groups) or competing for the same resource(s) within the same environment. There's nothing dangerous about this line of logic, because it's cold brutal reality.

That's wishful thinking. If someone from Harvard is being dropped in the bush I suppose he might have the intelligence to save his sorry ass and probably make a better shelter the bushman has. Why? Because he is fucking more intelligent and knows where to get his resources if he takes some time to think.

Then again, it all depends on the person itself, his overall health, strength and logic thinking. The fictive stories of the "wise white man dying in the wild because he didn't know how to live there" is plain bullshit.
Maybe he is more vurnable towards some diseases whom are geologically linked, but hey we are talking about assumptions here.
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#20728 - 02/18/09 12:20 PM Re: Are you a Satanist in public? [Re: Dimitri]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3883
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
 Quote:

No I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying that nurture dictates superiority more so than nature does:


How very egalitarian of you. I personally think it is the opposite.

People are born with a certain 'wattage'. People can't get any smarter; intelligence isn't gained through experience, only wisdom is.

Wisdom is a measure of 'superiority' in a lesser sense, but intelligence is a true measure of potential. Someone with a 60 watt bulb (say, you for instance) will never be able to reach the level of someone with a 120 watt bulb. (Say, for instance, myself)

Nurture can fill the box, but nature decides how big it is.

This of course is only valid if both parties are applying equal effort. There are plenty of 'bright' minds that just stagnate with a big nearly empty box, and plenty of tiny boxes packed to the brim. (Is this metaphor dead yet?)

I guess it could be said the bottom line is neither intelligence nor wisdom, but drive and ambition.
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#20738 - 02/18/09 01:49 PM Re: Are you a Satanist in public? [Re: Dan_Dread]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
I'd say it is a combination. Lots of drive and little intelligence and you're driving a Fiat Uno with the engine of a Ferrari. Lots of intelligence and little drive is the Uno in the Ferrari. The first goes fast but will crash soon, the second looks amazing but moves like a turtle.

And about the bushmen. Yeah they might be adapted perfectly in their environment but the fact that I can drive a SUV up to the antelope, shoot it with a shotgun, open a can of beer and laugh while I burn rubber on that Bushman's ass makes my culture own his.

D.

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#20740 - 02/18/09 02:51 PM Re: Are you a Satanist in public? [Re: Dimitri]
Gratikus Offline
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Registered: 05/24/08
Posts: 61
I never said genetics (nature) wasnt a factor. Im simply saying that if you take a kid who is more intelligent, place him in a poor public school system, and compare his future life to a kid of average intelligence, who is in a top private school system, you will see that the kid of average intelligence will probably have a better life than his more naturally intelligent counterpart.
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#20741 - 02/18/09 02:59 PM Re: Are you a Satanist in public? [Re: Gratikus]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
This is only true if you express better in financial terms. I know people that don't own too much shit but still have a better life than others whom own loads of stuff. There are musicians or artists out there whom survive on their work and are completely satisfied with that. Better is a subjective value system.

D.

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#20742 - 02/18/09 03:05 PM Re: Are you a Satanist in public? [Re: Gratikus]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3138
 Quote:
Im simply saying that if you take a kid who is more intelligent, place him in a poor public school system, and compare his future life to a kid of average intelligence, who is in a top private school system, you will see that the kid of average intelligence will probably have a better life than his more naturally intelligent counterpart.

Says who? Education is only a part of forming the intellect.
Intelligence is divided within 2 parts: intellect (knowing facts) and logic thinking (finding links within your knowledge and overall "knowhow" by guessing).
If the "naturally more intelligent counterpart" really is more intelligent I bet he'll find a way to succeed his life and even outshine the "average intelligent" one who has done private schooling with top teachers. You are making unveryfieable assumptions here. There are just too many factors who have an influence on this kind of test.

Btw, I never used the term "genetic". Read a bit better.
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#20744 - 02/18/09 05:03 PM Re: Are you a Satanist in public? [Re: Gratikus]
Mike Offline
member


Registered: 09/11/07
Posts: 253
Loc: Farmingdale, NY
 Quote:
No I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying that nurture dictates superiority more so than nature does:


I have to agree with Dan yet again. A genius by nature with little to no education will still succeed more than a total idiot with the best education possible because of the potential of the genius. You can teach the idiot physics, trigonometry, and chemistry but they will only understand so much. The genius on the other hand will adapt to their surroundings in a way that will benefit them later on, and has the potential of understanding the little information he learned better than all of the crap taught to the idiot.

For example, Abraham Lincoln hardly had any education, taught himself most of what he knew, obviously succeeded in a way most people don't and became president. George W. Bush on the other hand got probably the best education money could provide and well...the result speaks for itself.
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-Mike, "The Patron Satanic Saint of the Youth"

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#20779 - 02/19/09 08:02 AM Re: Are you a Satanist in public [Re: dark_wind]
IsacijH Offline
stranger


Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 15
Loc: Ume, Sweden
Yes, i come out with my religion and my beliefs. I come from Sweden, which i believe is a total haven for religious freedom. My parents are not religious at all, but they do not care what I believe in, as long as it doesn't involve illegal activities. My friends kind of laughs at the idea behind Satanism, but they have no problems with me being one. In fact, my girlfriend is a christian.

Hail Satan!
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Allt br betvivlas.

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#20796 - 02/19/09 01:32 PM Re: Are you a Satanist in public? [Re: Gratikus]
Master Magick Offline
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Registered: 01/06/09
Posts: 63
Loc: New York, USA
 Originally Posted By: Gratikus
I never said genetics (nature) wasnt a factor. Im simply saying that if you take a kid who is more intelligent, place him in a poor public school system, and compare his future life to a kid of average intelligence, who is in a top private school system, you will see that the kid of average intelligence will probably have a better life than his more naturally intelligent counterpart.


The rich kid can still end up dead from a heroin overdose at 16 or choke on his/her own puke at a frat party while the poor ghetto kid who dropped out at 14 because he/she had to work for a living ends up being a real estate tycoon. There is no hard fast rule here. Stop trying to make one.

Many good points have been made about Intellect vs. Wisdom vs. Environment vs. Genetics vs. Luck vs. Ambition etc. All are valid but there is no golden rule here. We are what we make ourselves to the best of our own abilities. Anyone who says they can "make" someone something is more full of S than the 3 card monte player around the corner...

(on topic) am I a Satanist in public? (sometimes)
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