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#94646 - 12/04/14 06:11 PM Wisdom
Czereda Offline
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"We've come to wish you a Very Happy Thursday," said Pooh, when he had gone in and out once or twice just to make sure that he could get out again.
"Why, what's going to happen on Thursday?" asked Rabbit, and when Pooh had explained, and Rabbit, whose life was made up of Important Things, said, "Oh, I thought you'd really come about something," ...

"Rabbit's clever," said Pooh thoughtfully.
"Yes," said Piglet, "Rabbit's clever." "And he has Brain."
"Yes," said Piglet, "Rabbit has Brain." There was a long silence.
"I suppose," said Pooh, "that that's why he never understands anything."


Wisdom vs knowledge vs insight. The things that are really important vs the things that only appear to be important. It's often hard to tell the difference. Like T.S. Eliot wrote, we lose wisdom in knowledge and knowledge in information. How is it possible that all the knowledge, instead of making some people wiser, makes them more ignorant? Can all these very important things obscure the small things that are at the core of our life? Can reason make us blind just like this poor Rabbit?


Edited by Czereda (12/04/14 06:14 PM)
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#94654 - 12/05/14 02:16 AM Re: Wisdom [Re: Czereda]
Dimitri Offline
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There's a magic word which discerns one from the other. It's that which differentiates theory from practice.

"Experience".

People do not like having things exceed the theoretical boundaries. They'll become stuck with the fear of having duties and responsibilities. That they may encounter things that will shake their inner core. People do not like it. We're all pretty conservative when it comes down to it.
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#94656 - 12/05/14 09:00 AM Re: Wisdom [Re: Czereda]
Megatron Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Czereda
Wisdom vs knowledge vs insight.


Wisdom: Knowledge gained via lived-through experience.

Knowledge: Hypothetical third-person abstracts covering some subset of the phenomena of perception.

Insight (slash/intuition): The ability to convert the latter into the former.

That's my take anyway.
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#94671 - 12/05/14 05:55 PM Re: Wisdom [Re: Dimitri]
Czereda Offline
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 Quote:
"Experience"


When I was writing this post, I was thinking about my grandmother and what she went through when young. She survived the war, suffered poverty for some time, had to put up with an irresponsible husband and, although she finished only the primary school, she managed to cope with all life ordeals and she was always a very mature and reasonable person. I sometimes wonder how I would manage if I were in her place, equipped with all my education. You can never know how you will behave in some difficult situation unless faced with it. And the university degree is no guarantee you will make proper choices, because how many educated idiots are out there?

On the other hand, since experience is the best teacher, mistakes can become valuable lessons. Is there a specific moment in life, when we can say that we have just gained wisdom, that we became wise? I don't think so. We learn all the time by gaining more and more experience. Our judgement, our personal view of things changes and develops as we progress along our path. Other people can be an inspiration, studies can help a bit but they won't replace a direct experience.
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#95883 - 01/20/15 01:53 AM Re: Wisdom [Re: Czereda]
Vulcan Logician Offline
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I always thought of wisdom as the ability to APPLY knowledge in decision making. As Demitri suggests, experiential knowledge (as I, too, believe) is superior to theoretical knowledge-- though they are both useful. Experiential knowledge is just so multi-faceted and all-pervading. Theoretical knowledge has a difficult time making an impression on the psyche. Experiential knowledge does not suffer from this deficit.

In regards to Megatron's thoughts:
To me, insight is a perceptive ability, not necessarily concerned with knowledge per se... but perception nourishes knowledge, so the two are certainly related (knowledge and insight.) I suppose you could say this boils down to semantics, but when these words are used, this is what they mean to me.

One who actually can make better choices because of the knowledge he has gained can be considered wise. One who makes poor choices (even if he is very knowledgeable) is unwise. Even a person with little knowledge (provided he uses what little knowledge he has to make better choices) could be considered wise. This goes for both experiential and theoretical knowledge.

You can have knowledge, yes. But only when this knowledge improves you can it be deemed "wisdom."

I believe that knowledge does not obscure wisdom necessarily. But knowledge nonetheless CAN obscure wisdom. Knowledge that does NOT obscure (but rather illuminates and clarifies) is thus wisdom.


Edited by Vulcan Logician (01/20/15 02:26 AM)
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#95884 - 01/20/15 02:40 AM Re: Wisdom [Re: Czereda]
LoneWolf78 Offline
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 Quote:
Can reason make us blind just like this poor Rabbit?


In the context that you pose this question, it does bring up a good point.

While I agree with Dimitri about experience, I would say that experience happens by testing the insights and gaining the knowledge.

However, the question then becomes does knowledge automatically equal wisdom?

When one considers experiences where the phrase: "I/he/she should have known better", the answer becomes that unfortunately people do not always gain wisdom from experience. They gain knowledge yes, but wisdom no.

 Quote:
How is it possible that all the knowledge, instead of making some people wiser, makes them more ignorant?


Take for instance someone who commits a crime. The person gets caught and gets thrown in jail. The person does not like jail, but still wants to accomplish his illegal goal.

The person has gained knowledge of something that doesn't work when committing the crime...something that got him caught. However, while he has this piece of knowledge, he is still ignorant enough to risk getting caught again.

Just in general everyday situations, how many people here have ran across that one person who never learns?

But back to your original question and point, I do think that sometimes people get so caught up in the big picture (knowledge or wanting to know) that they lose sight of both instinct and experience that will give them knowledge.

I recall Zeena talking about instinct on the Bob Larson show when Larson was trying to pigeon hole "right" and "wrong". Zeena was saying how that one's instinct determined that. As an example she used an infant being passed around a room until it reached that one person where it just started crying because instinctively the infant could sense something was wrong for itself.

I agreed very much with that point and remember thinking about how that unlike animals on all fours or infants that society conditions us to ignore instinct most of the time.

I try very much to pay attention to my gut senses.

Some would say that it is merely superstition to refrain from something because you have a bad feeling about it.

Experience has taught me better ;).

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#95885 - 01/20/15 03:10 AM Re: Wisdom [Re: LoneWolf78]
Vulcan Logician Offline
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 Originally Posted By: LoneWolf78
I try very much to pay attention to my gut senses.

Some would say that it is merely superstition to refrain from something because you have a bad feeling about it.

Experience has taught me better ;).


Very much so. Gut senses can be easily "rationalized away" as they are sometimes "wrong." But they are YOUR gut feelings. And just as any sense can be inaccurate (i.e. when you see something out of the corner of your eye that isn't really there) you should not ignore your gut feelings any more than you should close your eyes. Cutting yourself off from gut feelings is analogous to closing your eyes. Bad idea-- no matter what rationalism dictates. Senses can be wrong, yes, but they are still your senses. They are the only link between your Self and the universe. That being said, the intellect and rationality could be deemed a "sense" in a certain way. We shouldn't cut ourselves off from this cornucopia either.
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#95899 - 01/20/15 02:00 PM Re: Wisdom [Re: Czereda]
SIN3 Offline
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 Quote:
How is it possible that all the knowledge, instead of making some people wiser, makes them more ignorant?


I think it's a matter of preferences and bias. For example the guy that prefers to have casual sex without condoms may try to sell the idea that Mountain Dew Makes You Sterile . He takes this bit of information and uses it to confirm his preferences are legitimized (that condoms are only a bother). This type is rarely concerned with the detriment of habitual casual sex without protection. Who cares if it kills him? He's already reasoned safety away.
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#95905 - 01/20/15 02:39 PM Re: Wisdom [Re: Czereda]
antikarmatomic Offline
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 Quote:
Wisdom: Knowledge gained via lived-through experience.

Knowledge: Hypothetical third-person abstracts covering some subset of the phenomena of perception.


hmmm... ya' know I'm surprised “Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit, wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad.” hasn't come up.

 Quote:
Can all these very important things obscure the small things that are at the core of our life? Can reason make us blind just like this poor Rabbit?


Of course – 'happens all the time.

To stare hard and take a good long look at the "whys and wherefores" of that process is, at least in my mind, one of the more important tasks assigned to those grappling with the nature of psyche and the human condition (which certainly isn't for everyone – and even for those who are cut-out for it, it often doesn't end well – Nietzsche? Hemingway? LaVey? Need I say more?)

Naturally, taking such a task too seriously leads to the exact condition one is attempting to extricate themselves from in the first place. Entanglement.

Whatever ”system” one subscribes to (if any at all) it is evident enough that there is a certain unmistakable level of disharmony and confusion between the facets/levels of psyche.

Will, intellect, emotion, instinct, reason, knowledge, wisdom (I'm sure I've missed a few – depending upon your level of granularity, so here's a blank______) – they all speak their own language.

There's a “fault” in the wiring in that the left hand often doesn't know what the right hand is doing – except we're dealing with far more than just two * arms *

It is in the confusion betwixt (there's a word I don't use everyday) them that is, at least from where I stand, at once the core of individual human suffering and the fountain-head of the arts.

The burj babel – both within and without.

Admittedly, this is a pretty bold (maybe even vacuous, but by no means unique) assertion – still it is my intuition of the nature of things as it stands today.

Check back with me next year and who knows? I may be singing a completely different (and slightly less boring) tune...

...one can only hope. ;\)
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#95928 - 01/20/15 06:49 PM Re: Wisdom [Re: Megatron]
Naama Offline
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Insight comes prior to knowledge. As in Kabbalah: Khohmah, Binah, Daat. Khohmah is that initial vague " guess", like for example in the film "Usual Suspects" that detective suddenly realized who that criminal really was.
Binah is deep structural understanding, where you can explain your guess and break it down.
And finally Daat - deep applicable grounded knowledge which "works".
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#95929 - 01/20/15 07:00 PM Re: Wisdom [Re: SIN3]
Naama Offline
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 Originally Posted By: SIN3
 Quote:
How is it possible that all the knowledge, instead of making some people wiser, makes them more ignorant?


I think it's a matter of preferences and bias. For example the guy that prefers to have casual sex without condoms may try to sell the idea that Mountain Dew Makes You Sterile . He takes this bit of information and uses it to confirm his preferences are legitimized (that condoms are only a bother). This type is rarely concerned with the detriment of habitual casual sex without protection. Who cares if it kills him? He's already reasoned safety away.



I look at this whole thing completely differently...
"It's only Me who knows what is killing me". !
Right..?
Life consisting of half-way pseudo experiences (espesially when it comes to such things as sexual pleasure, e.t.c.)would be "a killer", for me. Substitutes of low quality - they are killing me, so to say.
Safe or not - I would only put my bets on experiencing "real life",
and rather skip sex whatsoever, but won't go swimming wearing rubber boots.
Oh, and if "unprotected" (what a word... what a word) sex would be really That dangerous, I would not be sitting here typing all that, considering amount of times I've done that. (Well...once I had to have an injection shot, but tsss...shshs... don't tell...).


Edited by Naama (01/20/15 07:04 PM)
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#95930 - 01/20/15 07:07 PM Re: Wisdom [Re: antikarmatomic]
Czereda Offline
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 Originally Posted By: antikarmatomic
To stare hard and take a good long look at the "whys and wherefores" of that process is, at least in my mind, one of the more important tasks assigned to those grappling with the nature of psyche and the human condition (which certainly isn't for everyone – and even for those who are cut-out for it, it often doesn't end well – Nietzsche? Hemingway? LaVey? Need I say more?)

Naturally, taking such a task too seriously leads to the exact condition one is attempting to extricate themselves from in the first place. Entanglement.


I was thinking about the trees and the forest. The insight is often lost in the stream of petty details. It affects any religion, it also infests the occult. Take, for example, theologians, or an average religious person. They lose God/gnosis in the multitude of rules and dogmas. Or take an average Satanist posting questions like: "What time is the best to conduct a destruction ritual?" or an average pagan: "Which spells are most effective?" Whether such and such a person is a true Satanist, whether this or that organization is truly Satanic belongs to the same realm of petty bullshit.

Magic is nothing more than applied psychology. Suppose you read everything there is to read about Satanism or the occult in general. If you are unable to understand other people, if you can't put yourself in their shoes, if you can't see through them, then are you really a magician or an occultist? If you have knowledge but you aren't in touch with your intuition, if you didn't experience what you had read, then do you really have a clue about what you are talking about?

Just like with the rabbit. His friends come to wish him happy Thursday. It's only an excuse. They just wanted to visit him. Apparently, the rabbit didn't get it.

 Originally Posted By: SIN3
For example the guy that prefers to have casual sex without condoms may try to sell the idea that Mountain Dew Makes You Sterile.


Typical confirmation bias. Most people are afraid of the knowledge that can shatter their comfortable delusions. So instead, they are looking for the "proofs" that will confirm their prejudices.
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#95933 - 01/20/15 07:31 PM Re: Wisdom [Re: Naama]
antikarmatomic Offline
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I don't wear rubbers - ever.

Well... ok, let me back-track it always starts with rubbers, but they have a way of being tossed to the way-side. "Babe I'm just not feeling it" "me neither"

IN like sin.

And sure, I've chilled-out lately, like, a lot - I've found my one-worth dying-for.

Love is not a myth, it's just VERY fucking hard to find or understand (at least in my mind) until you're at least old enough to run for president.

Could also be a symptom of my nuts shrinking - there's always that possibility to consider. *shudders*

I'm clean (surprisingly!), sober, yet... have also ruined a good number of homes between then and now - but it's only somewhat my fault. "'door's unlocked. swing-through or swarm if you want otherwise I'm just here - drooling on my pillow"

*shrugs* 'not sure how you can live with yourself kissing your hubby with that mouth knowing where it's been, but there will always be darker shades of black than I.

this, too, is often a good thing - for some, anyway.
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#95934 - 01/20/15 07:38 PM Re: Wisdom [Re: Czereda]
CanisMachina42 Offline
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If none of knowledge is filtered through normal processes then you only have your intuition to guide you. Which, in some cases, can be flawed through faulty wiring.

How was the rabbit suppose to know the underlying reason? Maybe the rabbit has Asperger’s and doesn't 'get' the basics of animal interaction? Social cues may not be the rabbits strong suit.

"Why, what's going to happen on Thursday?"

This is a dead give away. This speaks to something else. Maybe the rabbit has so much conflicting information coming in that he is unable to process it correctly and needs this verifiable evidence to conclude why the fuck his friends are there in the first place.

Or maybe he's just an asshole.
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#95949 - 01/21/15 02:01 PM Re: Wisdom [Re: Czereda]
antikarmatomic Offline
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 Quote:
Just like with the rabbit. His friends come to wish him happy Thursday. It's only an excuse. They just wanted to visit him. Apparently, the rabbit didn't get it.


I totally see what you're driving at. To be perfectly honest I see myself sometimes doing the same thing.

What I notice is that, ok, the shit I do for a living is probably the worst combination of 1) cerebral 2) "putting out fires" 3) time-sensitive 4) "mission-critical" 5) dealing with people who one can never be quite too sure of what their motives are ("political", in a word)

So my 9-5 (or better stated: my whenever-the-fuck-I-decide-to-wakeup - 9 hours-after-that) requires a "shift" in thinking - 'just the nature of the beast, which is fine.

The problem is I don't immediately "clock-out" when my day is done. I suspect this is true of basically any occupation.

I'll often find myself in that "state of mind" for quite sometime after the fact.

Friends unexpectedly knock on my door and I'm like "ok, what do they need? what favour (<- didn't think there was a U in that word, but the red squiggly says otherwise *shrugs*) are they going to ask me? what do they want me to fix? Can't they see I'm busy fucking-off? How dare they interrupt"

It takes a solid hour or so to "shift gears" and just chill. Conversely it takes a solid hour to "rev-up" back into work-mode.

For some people it might take even longer - perhaps never.

What I do find interesting about your analogy is that it touches a great deal on the nature of anxiety and fixation. It's also interesting that rabbits are often characterized in similar manners throughout many a story and myth.

I grapple with this a great deal if only because it amuses the ever loving shit out of me.

I certainly haven't reached any of the conclusions that, say Wilhelm Reich, or Freud has - but yes, I see it.

Vaguely, and you might notice yourself doing this too, it's something akin to forgetting to put the hammer back in the tool-box when you're done nailing shit to the wall.

Something along the lines of "forcing" when the situation calls for "letting"

*if I could be more clear about it, I'm sure I'd be working on a book deal by now ;\)


Edited by antikarmatomic (01/21/15 02:08 PM)
Edit Reason: thepenismightier
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