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#88341 - 05/31/14 10:47 PM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: numen]
antikarmatomic Offline
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 Quote:

Not really the point. Why do you think ONA would suggest killing, skinning, cooking, and eating a game animal using only a bow or crossbow for the killing?


sport, I guess? The chase? Getting back to my more primal roots I would imagine... but it's just... something I have no real moral issue with. While I never explicitly shot a deer I've helped skin one and ate it too... it was yummy (it really is)... it just doesn't phase me.

Now, a crossbow... that's upping the game a notch - I respect that. Never tried one and never knew anyone who had... 'cept some crazy-cat friend of mine I knew back in the day who snagged turkey illegally with a compound bow - if that counts. Tossed the corpse away - killing for teh lolz.

Anyway, I'm just saying killing things and even some really terrible things I have done (which I prefer to keep to myself) has no effect - maybe I'm ignorant - sure... then again gay porn doesn't get me hard either. To each their own, I suppose.


Edited by antikarmatomic (05/31/14 11:46 PM)
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#88359 - 06/01/14 05:21 AM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: numen]
Necrophilvs Offline
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Registered: 04/09/14
Posts: 98
Loc: Finland
 Originally Posted By: numen
 Originally Posted By: Necrophilvs

What is the rationale behind animal sacrifice, then?


Usually something to do with either appeasing or propitiating spirits, using a scapegoat, or using their 'lifeforce' for your own ends.


Ah right, so it's all about pleasing the "spirits"! Well, the best of luck in their endeavors.

As to the rest, "lifeforce", vital energy, or whatever you want to call is conjured up in Satanic magic through the building up of emotions, as LaVey profusely exemplified in TSB and TSR. If you can't do it by yourself, it's pointless to try to perform the ritual in the first place. But, as antikarmatomic says, to each his own.
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#88360 - 06/01/14 05:45 AM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: Necrophilvs]
Naama Offline
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Sorry for interfering in your conversation, guys.
Don't forget that LaVey was trying to create an official organization which would be recognized by government.
In such case - some adjustments are a MUST.
Surely he would not (technically)succeed in creating an officially recognized organization if he, let's say,
would state that things should be done "old-school traditional" way.
He had to prove (so to say) to the government that his Satanism is social and not harmful.( And a pink ribbon on the side...)

I personally, think that actual blood-letting during the murder of an animal (or human, whatever sacrifice we talking about) is much stronger action than
sending rays of "dark energy thoughts" towards anyone.
(somehow in our society we still have hit-men and killers, right?
black magic alone solely on the mental level sometimes works, sometimes it's not enough).
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#88369 - 06/01/14 11:07 AM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: Naama]
Necrophilvs Offline
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Registered: 04/09/14
Posts: 98
Loc: Finland
 Originally Posted By: Naama
Sorry for interfering in your conversation, guys.
Don't forget that LaVey was trying to create an official organization which would be recognized by government.
In such case - some adjustments are a MUST.
Surely he would not (technically)succeed in creating an officially recognized organization if he, let's say,
would state that things should be done "old-school traditional" way.
He had to prove (so to say) to the government that his Satanism is social and not harmful.( And a pink ribbon on the side...)


I hear you on that, and I doubt LaVey would have any moral issues with taking care of our enemies physically, despite the need to state the contrary in public. Still, I don't believe he wasn't honest about the (lack of) necessity of animal sacrifices in the literal sense. Otherwise, they would be tolerated (off-record, of course) within the CoS, and they weren't, at least to my knowledge.
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#88392 - 06/01/14 04:56 PM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: Naama]
Czereda Offline
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Registered: 03/14/11
Posts: 2089
Loc: Poland
 Originally Posted By: Naama
Don't forget that LaVey was trying to create an official organization which would be recognized by government.
In such case - some adjustments are a MUST.
Surely he would not (technically)succeed in creating an officially recognized organization if he, let's say,
would state that things should be done "old-school traditional" way.
He had to prove (so to say) to the government that his Satanism is social and not harmful.( And a pink ribbon on the side...)


True to some extent, but I think if LaVey sacrificed a chicken or a pigeon to Satan from time to time, nobody would make a fuss about it. He seems to condemn killing animals more than killing humans. He calls those practicing animal sacrifices sanctimonious cowards, who have no balls to kill humans so they choose helpless, innocent and undeserving victims - animals.

The "white" magician, wary of the consequences involved in the killing of a human being, naturally utilizes birds, or other "lower" creatures in his ceremonies. It seems these sanctimonious wretches feel no guilt in the taking of a non-human life, as opposed to a human's.

 Quote:
I personally, think that actual blood-letting during the murder of an animal (or human, whatever sacrifice we talking about) is much stronger action than
sending rays of "dark energy thoughts" towards anyone.


According to LaVey, the release of life force is not effected in the spilling of blood but in "the death throes of the living creature" and the same energy can be released through any profound heightening of emotions, like sexual orgasm, anger, fury, fear, grief and so on. Therefore sexual orgasm achieved through masturbation or venting your anger during the destruction ritual has even stronger effect than sacrificing an animal.

For LaVey, killing an animal is an act of cowardice, a poor substitute for a greater sacrifice done through the release of energy from your own body, an escape from releasing your strong blasphemous emotions during a ritual:

These poor conscience-stricken fools, who have been calling themselves witches and warlocks, would sooner chop the head off a goat or chicken in an attempt to harness its death agony, than have the "blasphemous" bravery to masturbate in full view of the Jehovah whom they claim to deny! The only way these mystical cowards can ritualistically release themselves is through the agony of another's death (actually their own, by proxy) rather than the indulgent force which produces life!

This always gives me a chuckle. \:\)

 Originally Posted By: Numen
Why do you think ONA would suggest killing, skinning, cooking, and eating a game animal using only a bow or crossbow for the killing?


To get in touch with your primal nature, perhaps, that nature uncontaminated by civilization. The prehistoric people were mostly gatherers or hunters using primitive weapons. And, as antikarmatomic said, for sport. Chasing a rabbit is more fun than killing it, just like a cat playing with a mouse.


Edited by Czereda (06/01/14 04:57 PM)
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#88401 - 06/01/14 07:15 PM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: Naama]
antikarmatomic Offline
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 Quote:
Sorry for interfering in your conversation, guys.


you can post, so post - it's not an interruption.

If you're into the whole blood letting thing... well, be my guest... just don't mess up my sheets with it - ya know?

Wanna kill animals? Cool, but I can promise you that stabbing ones eyes out isn't really all that cool. There is literally nothing to sell me-on w/r/t it... I've done that and "it is suck"

Don't take my word for it - go kill things if that gets you hard/wet. But see it for what it is - a fetish.

Or at best a taboo to break... but I shit you not, ya know what happens when you cross that line? Just a mess to clean up.

Go 'head and try it - I did once upon a time... I think nothing less of those who have, either... put it is so pointless - cuz death come to all things... ya just end up being the one having to hide the bones and playing janitor.

Not worth it.
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#88415 - 06/01/14 11:31 PM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: numen]
lou_cifer Offline
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Registered: 04/22/14
Posts: 16
the ona is one person ,operating under different names .
i read some his stuff very knowldgeble but stll. cant really get behind it . to much smoke mirrors and charlatan praticis. if i liked that i wouldnt have denounced the roman catholic church XD


Edited by lou_cifer (06/01/14 11:32 PM)

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#88421 - 06/02/14 02:47 AM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: numen]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3300
[quick reply]
When it comes to animal and human sacrifices, the taboo is one of sheer social and authoritative fear. Let's forget about limiting human sacrifice to your enemies. Do it with a random person. The essence of the ritual is getting intimate with the expiration of any living creature and the easiness on how it is attained.

 Originally Posted By: Czerada
A destruction ritual is a punishment of your enemies, it's not a typical sacrifice.

A destruction ritual invokes destruction tout cours. Limitation to "your enemies" is just a self-imposed moral construct for validation. It misses the actual goal of the ritual.
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#88520 - 06/03/14 11:50 AM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: lou_cifer]
numen Offline
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Registered: 09/09/12
Posts: 218
 Originally Posted By: lou_cifer
the ona is one person ,operating under different names .


The evidence you have for this assertion must be solid. You should present it for the rest of us to peruse. I wouldn't want people to think you're asserting your opinions as fact.

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#88521 - 06/03/14 11:57 AM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: Dimitri]
numen Offline
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Registered: 09/09/12
Posts: 218
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri

When it comes to animal and human sacrifices, the taboo is one of sheer social and authoritative fear. Let's forget about limiting human sacrifice to your enemies. Do it with a random person. The essence of the ritual is getting intimate with the expiration of any living creature and the easiness on how it is attained.


Well that was a very mundane response and just what I'd expect from a person of a certain physis.

 Quote:
A destruction ritual invokes destruction tout cours. Limitation to "your enemies" is just a self-imposed moral construct for validation. It misses the actual goal of the ritual.


What is the goal of a destruction ritual, in your opinion, Dimitri? How does one carry out such a ritual? When would it be done and why?

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#88557 - 06/03/14 05:08 PM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: numen]
Czereda Offline
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Registered: 03/14/11
Posts: 2089
Loc: Poland
 Quote:
What is the goal of a destruction ritual, in your opinion, Dimitri? How does one carry out such a ritual? When would it be done and why?


I think it all depends on an individual. Normally, it is releasing your emotions of anger and hatred and directing them against your target. Such strong emotions are a source of adrenaline and such powerful energy can be sent to your enemy. Of course, if you believe in this shit, that somehow you can influence your target's unconscious from afar.

For some it is a mere psychodrama, its purpose being purely cathartic. There is nothing more to it, except releasing your emotions. On Letters to the Devil forum, one CoS priest wrote that the destruction ritual could be simply writing your enemy's name on a piece of paper and flushing it down the toilet. What is a better way to show your disdain? No need for a white candle, a doll and pins, elaborate invocations and so on. The wretch who hurt you doesn't deserve even that.

In case of the ONA, it would be different. If I remember well, all the personal and emotional bias against the victims is discouraged. It's more cold-hearted calculation. The opfers should not be your personal enemies and you shouldn't let anger cloud your judgement. Perhaps, this is what Dimitri meant.

The tricky thing about the destruction ritual is that it can hurt not only the targeted victim but also all those who have contact with him or her. Blanche Barton claims in her biography of Anton LaVey that Jayne Mansfield was such an innocent victim of the ritual directed against her abusive lover. Her only fault was that she was with him in the car.
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#88620 - 06/04/14 04:13 AM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: numen]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3300
 Quote:
Well that was a very mundane response and just what I'd expect from a person of a certain physis.

You do realise that the response I gave entails unbiased random murder right? Only for the mere sake of getting intimate and acknowledging that the uncaring and cruel nature, that is nature, also resides within every human being.

 Quote:
What is the goal of a destruction ritual, in your opinion, Dimitri?

Just what the names says. Destruction.
 Quote:
How does one carry out such a ritual?

With knives, poison, bats, guns or any other instrument that's fit.
 Quote:
When would it be done and why?

Own choosing.

You see, you're wired into the symbolism and spiritual to the extend that mundane actions and ritual prescriptions become the way of living. My Satan(ism) is of the crueller and more practical kind of way. If you say, to me, "destruction ritual" I'll be taking a few minutes of preparation (protective combat gear and such) before destroying stuff or someone in the quite literal way. As it has been supposed that way.

Sure it might be seen as a mundane kind of thinking. But I prefer that way above the fluffication of Satanic ritual where written paper is being thrown in the toilet after dedicating it to a mere historical symbol.

Bringing the "psycho" back in psychodrama.
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#88641 - 06/04/14 10:49 AM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: Dimitri]
SIN3 Offline
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Registered: 05/14/13
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Loc: Virginia
to Numen:

So is it mundane to physically destroy a person or mundane to consider it a spiritual endeavor?

Just wanted to clarify ;\)
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#88679 - 06/04/14 12:18 PM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: Dimitri]
numen Offline
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Registered: 09/09/12
Posts: 218
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri

You do realise that the response I gave entails unbiased random murder right?
Oh yes, that was clear.

 Quote:

Just what the names says. Destruction.


...

 Quote:

With knives, poison, bats, guns or any other instrument that's fit.


...

 Quote:
 Originally Posted By: numen
When would it be done and why?

Own choosing.


Ah. Any reason as good as any other?

 Quote:
You see, you're wired into the symbolism and spiritual to the extend that mundane actions and ritual prescriptions become the way of living.


Whatever gave you that idea?

 Quote:
My Satan(ism) is of the crueller and more practical kind of way.


Of course it is.

 Quote:
If you say, to me, "destruction ritual" I'll be taking a few minutes of preparation (protective combat gear and such) before destroying stuff or someone in the quite literal way. As it has been supposed that way.


I'm not sure why you think that's relevant.

 Quote:
Sure it might be seen as a mundane kind of thinking. But I prefer that way above the fluffication of Satanic ritual where written paper is being thrown in the toilet after dedicating it to a mere historical symbol.


As is typical you seem to have missed the point.

 Quote:
Bringing the "psycho" back in psychodrama.


I'm sure you'd like people to think of you that way.

It's cute in a saccharin way.
.

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#88683 - 06/04/14 12:20 PM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: SIN3]
numen Offline
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Registered: 09/09/12
Posts: 218
 Originally Posted By: SIN3
to Numen:

So is it mundane to physically destroy a person or mundane to consider it a spiritual endeavor?

Just wanted to clarify ;\)


I'm going to assume this was said with tongue firmly implanted in cheek. ;\)

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