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#9641 - 06/16/08 05:00 PM The Temple of the Black Light and MLO
Kelow Offline
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Registered: 06/05/08
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Loc: Sweden
I have been studying MLO for a while and I have learned a lot from my research. I wated to start this thread to see who else, if anyone, has studied it as well. Even on a miniscule level, I would like to hear feedback from how you see MLO as opposed to, say the Church of Satan or the Temple of Set. I have found it to be much more embraceful of the Universe as a whole than other religions or sects similar to MLO.

What do you think?


Edited by Kelow (06/16/08 05:00 PM)
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#9642 - 06/16/08 05:06 PM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: Kelow]
Simon Offline
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Registered: 04/10/08
Posts: 78
You have any form of links to a site on the subject?
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#9643 - 06/16/08 05:18 PM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: Simon]
Kelow Offline
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Registered: 06/05/08
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Loc: Sweden
There isn't a lot of information about it. All I can say without going to deep is that. It's based on gnosticism, however it has a very specific direction. Most of the information gathered is from gnostic writing that goes back as far as the bible and prior. The gnostics actually had their own bible, however some claim it was hidden, for the sake of preserving it since gnostics were persecuted highly for their belief in extremely high spiritual intelligence. Intelligence that would explain how everything came to be and an understanding of where we have come from. They believed the answers are inside of us and all around us. The MLO is a very aggressive version of gnostism.
The primary teachings come from the book Liber Azerate, but sadly I've only found it in Swedish.

The Temple of the Black Light houses the beliefs of MLO.
http://www.templeoftheblacklight.net/
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#9693 - 06/19/08 06:26 AM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: Kelow]
Matt Massacre Offline
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Registered: 06/09/08
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Loc: Schleswig-Holstein, Germany
a founder of the mlo was sentenced in murder!
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#9699 - 06/19/08 01:48 PM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: Matt Massacre]
Kelow Offline
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Registered: 06/05/08
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 Originally Posted By: Matt Massacre
a founder of the mlo was sentenced in murder!
Old news, no one cares anymore.
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#10134 - 07/08/08 02:27 PM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: Kelow]
Greg Offline
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Registered: 06/12/08
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The MLO is based on a chaotic/nihilistic gnosticism with strong influence and stuff coming from the ONA, especially the nexion concept and the aeonic way.
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#10205 - 07/13/08 11:08 AM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: Kelow]
Svion Offline
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Registered: 07/11/08
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Loc: Sweden
I see the chaosophy of totbl as a uncomparable way of thinking, partly because of, as you say, the greater embracement, and perspective of the universe and its aeonic dimensions(in a anti-cosmic way of thinking). Also the spiritualism reflects my interests very much.

The Church of Satan for example, is for me, a totally different kind of organisation, which focuses on the "nature" and "pleasurement" of man, the ego self bla bla.
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#12280 - 10/06/08 03:37 PM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: Svion]
Arkham Offline
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Registered: 10/05/08
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Loc: European Union, Sweden
I think chaosophy is quite interesting, but also a bit fuzzy. Jon Nödveit wasn't sentenced for murder, he helped the murder and were thrown in prison because of that. He commited suicide two years ago.

I got the Liber azerate but as far as i know, it is only avaible in Swedish at this time, but I've heard rumors telling that TOTBL will print English and German copies during 2007, but haven't seen anyone yet.
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#27471 - 07/25/09 12:12 AM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: Arkham]
bluj666 Offline
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Registered: 07/14/09
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Jon Nödveit wasnt the founder of the Temple of the Black Light, though he was a high ranking member of the Current 218. And personally I think the TotBL is one of the more intellegent New Age Occult practices with sound theory, however I do think some take what they teach a little to literally.
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#27477 - 07/25/09 02:15 AM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: Matt Massacre]
The Zebu Offline
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Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1647
Loc: Orlando, FL
 Quote:
a founder of the mlo was sentenced in murder!


And he became an hero a few years ago. Again, old news. But just for the record, he wasn't the founder- but he did become an influential member- not minimally due to his band's popularity.

 Quote:
I have found it to be much more embraceful of the Universe as a whole than other religions or sects similar to MLO.


I wouldn't say so... they seem to be very anti-materialistic; the way they tend to vilify the ordered universe, as if matter is inherently negative (much like the Gnostics did). I think a part of it is that they're over-reacting against the "rational hedonism" of the CoS. I just don't see how that can be a healthy viewpoint, when their rituals refer to the human body as a "filthy clay imprisoning".... not to mention that it's an awfully huge metaphysical pill to swallow. Frankly, if anyone straight-facedly professed a literal belief in those ideas to my face, I'd probably think they were nuts.

Nonetheless, their magic is quite authentic and complex, unlike most groups that don't go beyond burning black candles and saying the Our Father backwards. I see a lot of Kenneth Grant's influence, especially with their Klippothic stuff. I only wish they'd stop dicking around and release Liber Azerate already, along with all their other stuff. Based on what limited material I've seen so far, it won't disappoint.
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#30618 - 10/19/09 07:46 AM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: The Zebu]
Greg Offline
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Registered: 06/12/08
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Loc: France, Paris
The MLO was established by one named Vlad (in jail) a friend of Jon. At first, the MLO was conceived to be an evil gang of biker and not an occult organization. Today, the ToBL is managed by the guitarist of Dissection, Set Teitan.

Edited by Greg (10/19/09 07:47 AM)
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#30628 - 10/19/09 11:16 AM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: Greg]
Nick-Aotmzgin Offline
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Registered: 10/02/09
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its interesting i will read an articales about it and datat sources etc...
wikipedia and google yahoo...
the mnore the better.
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#30646 - 10/20/09 12:56 AM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: Arkham]
Master Magick Offline
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Registered: 01/06/09
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Loc: New York, USA
 Originally Posted By: Arkham
he helped the murder and were thrown in prison because of that. He commited suicide two years ago.


Suicide. That about sums it up. End of f'ing story.
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#30656 - 10/20/09 06:28 PM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: Master Magick]
CJB Offline
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Loc: Virginia Beach, VA
Speaking as an Atheist, I don't see anything there that's interesting as more than cool flavor text, and nothing that can be considered as a factual statement with any sort of evidence whatsoever. Maybe I just wasn't looking hard enough?

An interesting question that I think could be spelled out in simple English (or really, in any language. I can put my babelfish in for this...)

What evidence is there for this permeating non-permeating everything and nothing totality and...err...negality...chaos? Simply saying "look at all these old books and stuff and all our flowery words and shit that say this stuff is real!" isn't saying anything more than "I should write dark gothic horror fiction and music and stuff and make money off this shit."

Furthermore...who would want to be a follower of self-contradicting chaos? Seems to me more of a way to escape from their sad lives than a way to actually meaningfully live their lives.

Again, maybe if I would spend more time reading about it, I might find the answers, but from what I've read so far, I could better spend my time doing other things. I find it typically true that if someone uses big, flowery, esoteric terms without any kind of simpler explanation using normal language, they're just trying to sell you something you don't need or want.

Maybe later, if I'm bored, I'll struggle through what I could find and try to figure out what the crap they're actually trying to say, but as for right now, it looks rather silly.
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#30934 - 10/29/09 06:41 AM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: CJB]
Arkham Offline
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Actually, there are some scientific ideas on this one. Both the superstring theory and Andrei Lindes theory of eternal inflation (or "eternal chaotic inflation", do not know what you call it in English). Both theories says that our universe is not the only one. The superstring theory says that there is one "shadow-universe" in an eleven-dimensional reality. Linde says that we are living in a multiverse, where new universes are created and old colapsing instantly. He also says that the posibility for a universe without "our" rules and laws of physics is quite big. So, Chaos could actually exist in some way or another, though, I've met some members of the Totbl (atleast they SAID they were) and my experience of Totbl is that it is a group of posers and suicidal 20+ longing to be a part of something, and to shine in the light of bands like Dissection, Waitan and Arckanum.

The MC-gang that Greg mentioned is called Werewolf Legion.
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#30946 - 10/29/09 06:20 PM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: Arkham]
Bacchae Offline
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the allure of the MLO et al is mystery, obscure occultic text, and the suggestion that they "know" something no one else does, i.e. initiation.
a cursory glance reveals nihilism cloaked in unoriginal goobledygook. I was more interested the first time I read all this.... in a Kenneth Grant and Andrew Chumbley books. it is a swedish version of Michael Fords pantheon, heavy on the suicide with some cool bands thrown in. end of story.

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#30956 - 10/29/09 09:01 PM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: Arkham]
CJB Offline
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If they're operating a religion based on the principles of rather theoretical quantum mechanics, why don't they just plainly say so? I would find it much more interesting to find something like that than the gibberish one usually finds. In addition, if they were actually serious about it, they wouldn't mind having an additional group of people who come from a more scientifically bent background to try to work with them. Hell, if they operated on those principles, I would think having a quantum physician around would be useful.
Maybe that's my calling in life. Create a religion based solely on theories of quantum theories and string theories and multiversal theories, etc. We can have our prayers in mathematical equation (we can teach times tables in Sunday school!), sacrifice bad ideas on the Altar of The Scientific Method, and hold philosophical discussions on whether free will exists or is an illusion given the fact that there's another universe exactly like ours, only two and half seconds ahead, so they are, in reality, predetermining our own thoughts and actions.

I don't recall hearing of Lindes before, although I have heard of the multiverse theory before. Being something of a science dweeb, that might be someone I'd be interested in looking in. However, with the universes being created and collapsing instantaneously, would that apply to our own as well, or since time is relative, would it depend on the point of view of the observer, such that the denizen of another universe could observe ours and see the big bang and heat death nearly at his same relative time?
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#31005 - 10/30/09 09:52 PM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: CJB]
The Zebu Offline
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That's a pretty sexy idea, except the problem is that when mystical groups pull out the quantum-mechanics/string-theory card, it usually means that they're using it as a metaphysical security blanket to justify outrageous beliefs that can't actually be proven. I strongly suspect the MLO/TotBL started out with a bunch of teenage metalheads saying "Y'know what would be really cool? If we could worship CHAOS and DEATH and all that awesome shit!"

My main issue with the Chaos-Gnostic folks is that they tend to take themselves WAY too seriously, and view themselves as if they're engaged in some kind of occult warfare against the universe itself. Kinda facepalm-inducing.

That said, I'm going to make a bowl of tuna. And I'm going to enjoy it, even though it is FOUL, TAINTED tuna made from CAUSAL DEMIURGIC MATTER. Rawr.
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#31016 - 10/31/09 04:08 AM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: The Zebu]
TheInsane Offline
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 Originally Posted By: The Zebu
I strongly suspect the MLO/TotBL started out with a bunch of teenage metalheads saying "Y'know what would be really cool? If we could worship CHAOS and DEATH and all that awesome shit!"


This is actually pretty much how this organisation started under the banner of MLO (misanthropic lucifer order). It has grown and matured since then but I cant really take them seriously because of that background. Reading the early articles they put forth you can see a level om immaturity you wouldnt believe was possible for people who actually strived to put together a religious/magical order.

The organisation today seems to have picked up more mythology and say things in a different, more articulate way but the basics are mostly the same.

Their knowledge of mythology is very much limited (or maybe they choose to ignore what doesnt fit into their own views). They exhalt Kali for example, of course praising her as the destroyer of the universe. However they also completely ignore her two other aspects as the emanator of the universe and as the nurturer of just that. She is three parts that represents the whole cycle (emate, nurture, destroy). Fallacies can also be seen in their interpretations of Set and the Egyptian religion.

They are also very "religious" in their attitude. As their base is in Sweden and alot of the members are people from the metal community I sometimes hear a thing or two they have done when out in bars. For one they once took someone aside because he had used the "lords name in vain" (he had been drunk and started shouting about Satan and the Devil). Another time the vocalist of Watain (Erik, TotBL member) talked to someone he thought played "false black metal" (apparently they werent satanic enoug for him) and told him that his "order has its eyes on you".

You can take these stories as you wish. I realize it sounds like gossip. I never saw it myself but it comes from a friend of mine that I play music regulary that is hanging around alot in the nightlife of stockholm and the same places some of these temple of the black light guys like to visit.

On the subject of basic a religion on quantum physics there has been interesting attempts. Or actually interpret and explain religion with science. In Satanism you have The Dark Doctrines who has lengthy articles on the relation of what they call the dark traditions and moder physics ( http://www.apodion.com/vad/ ). In eastern thought you have books like "the tao of physics" which makes a good cause for the relation between the two worlds. I should note that the dark doctrines Satanism heavily draws upon certain concepts on eastern thought so the case they make for the relation between religion and science is often the same or closely related.

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#49564 - 02/24/11 03:34 PM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: TheInsane]
Hegesias Offline
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Ask 'What does anti-cosmic philosophy do?'

Does he/ she have any experience with the paradigm, or realise what is the object for existential nihilism polarised by design?

What happens to the individual, his reality and those in it, when his hate turns to something beyond emotion and becomes an obsessional affair with desolation.

Nihilism cannot be overcome unless we create new values. However, all values devalue themselves, they are illusion and so the object becomes clear.Violent nihilism represents nihilism as a means, submissive nihilism represents nihilism as an end.

Existential nihilism polarised by design. Omit the words of the philosophy and recognise what lies beneath it all. There is no need to formalise things.

These word may be regarded as inane embellishment, this will be understandable. I am not talking to anyone. I am only speaking.

He will apply laughter/laughter to the irreversible desolate paradigm. Desolate laughter/laughter is beyond human paroxysm and enables two things. 1. laughing at anything from loved ones dying to having your own head smashed in. 2. Total self mastery over human emotion and external reaction. Why? because the bastard demiurge's clay which potter about the false creation are ensnared by the desolate ones lucid, pure and universal hate.

Once sown into every fibre of His microcosm—ineffable desolation. The irreversible dark seeps into, permeates all of waking or otherwise thoughts and perception. He will realise internal dialogue is ceasing, inside extinction culminates, stillness, emptiness on the verge of frenzy. He will receive the blackest intrusion into human psyche.

His desolate laughter has no opposite nor causal manifestation. All is meaningless before his hideous inspiration. The desolate one laughs at torture/ death for it makes him blithe.
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#49791 - 02/26/11 12:57 AM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: Hegesias]
Hegesias Offline
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However, the demiurgos portrayal in my literature is the world by which the individual has been shackled to by his ego and deconstruction of this world is what will build him new.

To encapsulate what is active existential nihilism and it's applications for moving over and into opposites—destroying ethos and societal ways of thinking through Nihilist dialectic.

Some are bound to one philosophy and are conceited egoists.
Active nihilism destroys all of this and leaves the individual as himself/ herself.


I simply use nihilist dialectics to get this job done.
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#51073 - 03/16/11 12:51 AM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: Hegesias]
Dave Pellani Offline
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Ask 'What does anti-cosmic philosophy do?'
It's hard to add to what you say here, but I’ll try to shed a different shade of "light" to it, and get it into more simplistic terms. Based on what I can see of the typical responses here, I think people tend to over analyze it, and completely miss the boat in terms of the metaphysical / magickal nature involved. We have to keep in mind that the Earth is part of the cosmos, so what happens in the cosmos, eventually happens to Earth, and the life that occupies it. On the higher or "greater” order of the universe, there is the theme of the war in heaven, as it is portrayed in many different mythologies, that is intertwined with creation itself.
The theme of this TBL site gets to address the question posed above. It's a very interesting question. You have to abandon the universe of existentialism in order to grasp it. These types of concepts can never be able to compete with scientific rationalization. To the practitioner, all that matters is the "experience", and not the opinions of others..
This site and it's philosophy deals with nihilism in a sense of the cosmic order, but can also be applied to the earthly.
The denial of the nihilistic nature of mankind comes about in the name of being politically or socially correct, or through Judeo Christian dogma. We have lived with chaos for many millennia, and we will continue to do so, in spite of what is deemed to be a civilized approach. From what means, to what end is the issue. If you buy into the theory of creation, whether it be of the Egyptian, Babylonian, Sumerian, Polynesian, Hindu, etc. then the theosophy of the Temple of the Black Light gives insight and expands this insight, from the Greco - Egyptian Mesopotamian perspective. If you think it's all over when they dig a hole for you, then this theosophy won't be of much value. If you believe in an afterlife of any kind, then that's where it gets interesting. And then, essentially, you get to choose sides. Now, there is one invocation on the TBL site that is a conflict of interest with some of my own experiences that have been of great benefit to me. I don’t sum the whole theosophy over that. I simply draw from the elements of it that apply to my own interests.
I still believe there is some confusion over the teachings of LaVey, and it's not my purpose here to argue with all that. It gets to be a "He said; She said" kind of proposition. The Black Light theosophy has its roots I believe, in some aspects of LaVeyan Satanism, and possibly some sort of Setian theology. There is also some confusing, conflicting theory in terms of the type of "Godhead Personality" Set represented, as outlined by Wallis Budge in his "Egyptian Ideas of Future Life" and “The Egyptian Book of the Dead” My superficial view of the teachings of the Temple of Set, for example, is that it does not seem to advocate nihilism.

But to try to separate nihilism form the teaching of LaVey is like trying to separate the yolk from the whites. It’s just that LaVey did not advocate "blanket nihilism", and if you look hard enough, neither does the theosophy of the Temple of the Black Light. You simply have to choose what is good from your own perspective
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#56572 - 07/06/11 11:54 AM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: Arkham]
battlescar22 Offline
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I love the TOTBL, their very dense with information. They take things from Kenneth Grant and Peter Carroll and add a gnostic twist. They've had a very strong influence on my paradigm.

-22

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#56630 - 07/08/11 07:41 AM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: battlescar22]
Jason King Offline
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It would appear that this thread is getting people banned in a quick hurry . . .

The problem with "anti-cosmic" thought, in any particular set/iteration, is that it is self-defeating. It is, for lack of a better parallel, metaphysical anarchism, which again, makes no sense.

The formlessness which is the primordial background against which manifestation occurs is little more than a conceptual asymptote. It is neither a state of affairs, nor a qualitative given. Rather, it is an acausal definitive derived in order to stop an infinite regress. Later (in the development of mythology), this Mulaprakriti morphed into the "unmoved mover," etc. and Prime Chaos was overthrown by the One God.

However, neither concept is suited for anything more than an imaginary limit/asymptote, as manifestation necessarily requires form.

JK
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#56679 - 07/10/11 01:26 AM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: Jason King]
ta2zz Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Jason King
It would appear that this thread is getting people banned in a quick hurry . . .

So I just had to take a quick glance and honestly no one was banned due to anything said in this thread that much is apparent. Of course since two of the last to reply here are banned or temp banned I can see how it is easily assumed it is due to this thread.

From all appearances using observational skills one can see Dave Pellani was banned due to this thread here two months later; http://www.the600club.com/topic55134-1.html

Am I off topic, I am talking about this thread after all. Does any of it matter? Well if you miss such simple things as this here it makes you appear that you are quick to jump to conclusions. How much more have you missed or assumed while building these grand theories of yours?

No need to reply, really…

~T~


Edited by ta2zz (07/10/11 01:46 AM)
Edit Reason: Corrected a thought...
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#56680 - 07/10/11 05:01 AM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: ta2zz]
Jason King Offline
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 Originally Posted By: ta2zz
How much more have you missed or assumed while building these grand theories of yours?


One sentence offered in passing hardly constitutes a "grand theory". I did check the hall of shame before writing that, but saw neither user listed. And I could really care less enough to scroll through each user's posts and try and figure out who they pissed off or when. I saw commonality of thought on this thread combined with commonality of ban.

Instead of waxing intellectual about how you obviously pay far more attention to the Club social dynamic than I do, why not try to deal with the thread topic? Do you think you could manage that?

JK
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#56694 - 07/10/11 09:45 PM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: Jason King]
The Zebu Offline
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I think the principle error of "chaos gnosticism" and other forms of anti-materialism lies in the difficulty of reconciling the idea of a transcendent ideal with an anthropocentric rejection of observable reality.

Anticosmicism is not truly anarchic, because it posits that "order" is inherently unnatural and therefore wrong, and that by contrast, "chaos" is somehow pure and desirable. Instead of reconciling opposites (the crux of the LHP and the Opus Magnum overall), they have simply changed out one dualism for another.

It is easy to be mislead by the adversarial rhetoric and the spooky-looking sigils, but the theory (and practice) of the MLO/TotBL is literally Qabalah painted black. It seems to me that they are merely obsessed with maintaining a "dark" image at the expense of esoteric integrity.

As their book Liber Falxifer testifies, they can't even adapt African/Hispanic necromancy-- which is pretty much as "dark" as a natural tradition can get-- without trying to dress it up in overstated aggression and horribly mangled pseudo-Latin. It is indeed telling that the TotBL seems to have abandoned their reverse-Qabalah system in favor of a distorted caricature of Afro-American religion. Are their ideas are so shallow that they must resort to parasitically clinging to a genuine living tradition in order to make themselves seem authentic? There is so much more potential in adapting such living traditions into the Western esoteric milieu, but reckless misappropriation is definitely not the way to go.
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#56699 - 07/11/11 07:30 AM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: The Zebu]
Jason King Offline
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 Originally Posted By: The Zebu
Anticosmicism is not truly anarchic, because it posits that "order" is inherently unnatural and therefore wrong, and that by contrast, "chaos" is somehow pure and desirable.


Whenever I use the word "anarchy" outside of political discourse, I intend it to be understood more closely to the roots: an + arche -> without first principles. Philosophical/theological arche are the basis for cosmogenesis, and any true anticosmic stance would reject these. The baby is gone alone with the bath water.

The anticosmic stance has no logical leg to fall back on because any semblance of order/rationality/discourse presupposes a background of arche which make these prior relevant. Imagine a person who said that they detested language. Language is bad, wrong, detestable, etc. How exactly would such a person communicate that notion? Anticosmic thought multiplies this difficulty by at least a factor of 10^72, since every particle in the universe carries information, and hence holistic order.

Any individual who posits anticosmicism (or even the more tame antinatalism) has exactly one thing they can do to be true to their philosophy. And anything less than silent suicide is simply a case of pretentious wankerantion. If they care enough to write books, maintain websites, etc. they are fakers, no better than the anti-gay preacher who gets caught on camera with a cock in his mouth.

JK
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#57785 - 07/29/11 08:55 PM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: Jason King]
Hegesias Offline
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Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 725
What's the term (or word) for an occasion whence a text or even ones own cerebration serves as a preservation and strengthening of the values it first appears to devalue of itself?

Disorder and confusion is understood as usable beyond the preference of the ego fixation. The Chaos is to primacy of what is primordial. If you will, perspectivism, owing to small changes in conditions. Ones unconscious is very much part of ones conscious. Of admixture with the shadow, where feral drives are all pervasive in the untamed state. The intellect ensues a dialectic with the feral. The affirmation of a lacking. I have searched. I cannot identify anything inside me. Only dark, clear in its nature. There is nobody there. I am no one. An inverse god, sacrificing everything so that stimulation should satiate him, yet he is insatiable. Without the predilection to surround oneself with sycophants, the inverse god becomes to a pitiless vision of a mentally maladjusted failure whom is not all that oblivious to his own condition.

If we look at the civilisation from a nihilist's point of view, we see a civilisation of convenient fiction or irrefutable error. The Chaos is to primacy of what is primordial. We learn to see what lies in reaching that darkest night of the soul, when the civilisation becomes to a lucid vision of misanthropy so clear that one would impulsively smile inwardly from rage so deep seated that there is no paroxysm that could express it.

I have long since replaced any strict following of The Black Light doctrines with the desolate banality of nihilism, and as consequence, faced with only esoteric malevolent cerebrations, strengthening emotions toward a total rejection of a given universe. The Self attempts to evolve into the godhead of emotional deadness, the substance of freedom. The individual no longer cares to warrant the expected reaction imposed by the rules of existence (or how others expect him to react).

This non localised stance could be described as anti-realism, solipsism and existential nihilism, all pervasive over perspectivism and relativism, but we must affirm what "type" of anti-realism and what is being negated and what is being affirmed. The gnostics had an intuition that the observable universe was illusory, I simply look at it as nonlocal quantum holography in conjunction with malfeasant Jungian Shadow work, a polarisation of nihilism by design.

Developing a dense shadow consisting of malevolence will enable you to feel nothing for this world but rage and disgust. The light of day is dark. And only the elect shall look into the light of the world and see darkness there, that emanation within oneself. That blackest intrusion; resounded by joyless laughter. The desolate one laughs at suffering and death, it makes him blithe, for nothing is real anyway but for the malign optimism of civilisations values which devalue themselves. Gliding frictionless in constant negative curvature from the ever elusive summit of Sisyphean frustration.

Mind and matter interaction is impressively realistic, this does not mean one ought to respect any boundaries of such a contrived design, beyond any preference of the individual, one ought to visit violent disobedience.

It does not matter where it is thought to be located, for it is not able to be located even residually by a single human, let alone in any concept of entirety. Knowledge, itself, does not exist, or at least it oughtn't be something sought to be located. All that is based on sensory premises ought be affirmed futile, as building a forte' on quicksand.

Chaos theorem maps the irreversibility of causality in the macro universe. As we are the causally bound apparatus conducting the experiment, in particular, Chaos theorem maps consciousness experienced by humans itself. All we can observe is the effect of consciousnesses selective amnesia trapped in a shadowy tomb of flesh and bone. \:\)


Edited by Hegesias (07/29/11 09:33 PM)
Edit Reason: deadpan
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#58070 - 08/09/11 02:13 PM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: Kelow]
makavelli Offline
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Registered: 08/06/11
Posts: 2
am new tom this house, i will like u to enlight me more about it. tnx
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#58071 - 08/09/11 02:15 PM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: makavelli]
makavelli Offline
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Registered: 08/06/11
Posts: 2
am new tom this house, i will like u to enlight me more about it. tnx
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#58076 - 08/09/11 04:52 PM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: makavelli]
SkaffenAmtiskaw Moderator Offline
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Registered: 06/24/09
Posts: 1318
Then I suggest you read the thread. Also, please try to make an effort with your posts. Laziness will not earn you brownie points with anyone. While you're at it, I recommend the FAQ as introductory literature.
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#58103 - 08/10/11 12:56 PM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
Jason King Offline
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Registered: 10/24/10
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Loc: 65?1%833Q!92A24 (It's a code)
Skaf, I've always wondered why someone would go to a third party site and inquire about some other party. I get this elsewhere just as you do here. And perhaps I'm stuck with the same dilemma:

A) an idiot with no access to Google

B) a baldfaced troll

JK
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#58248 - 08/16/11 12:49 PM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: Jason King]
BaronVonShankly Offline
member


Registered: 03/23/09
Posts: 169
Loc: London
Ive purchased several of frater nihl's books, still waiting for a few to arive. Of the one ive read I do agree with what Jason King said in his video, they do need to read more into other ideas to fill out their belief system.
So far ive seen it more as an ONA add on as opposed to somthing in itself entirely. However I feel that it's own ideas arnt fully realised enough yet for this to be the case.


Edited by BaronVonShankly (08/16/11 12:52 PM)

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#58258 - 08/16/11 09:09 PM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: BaronVonShankly]
The Zebu Offline
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Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1647
Loc: Orlando, FL
 Quote:
So far ive seen it more as an ONA add on as opposed to somthing in itself entirely.


The ONA bits were actually thrown into Liber Azerate rather arbitrarily... a word or two about Baphomet and a half-assed attempt at mapping out the hermetic elements with a tetrahedron. Not much beyond that. They do use the words "causal" and "acausal", but in a completely different sense than the ONA does. If anything, they are more like neo-platonic Gnostics.

The TotBL have never been huge on philosophy; more of the ceremonial type. They prefer to take other existing paradigms (Typhonian, Trad-Witchcraft, Brujeria) and re-frame them in a "Qliphotic" way.


Edited by The Zebu (08/16/11 09:28 PM)
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#76221 - 05/01/13 12:09 PM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
okoye c emmanuel Offline
banned
stranger


Registered: 04/19/13
Posts: 9
Loc: ogun state.nigeria
Pls can u help me,i want to do money ritual.



Other posts deleted and this guy is banned...
How the fuck did he get in????
M


Edited by Morgan (06/30/13 10:22 PM)
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#76223 - 05/01/13 12:59 PM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: okoye c emmanuel]
Oxus Offline
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Registered: 04/15/10
Posts: 542
Repeat as a Mantra over and over again . . . 419 419 419
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#76520 - 05/21/13 01:15 AM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: Oxus]
SIN3 Offline
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Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 7190
Loc: Virginia
Don't you mean 218, 218, 218...lol

Anyhoot, back to the topic at hand...

 Quote:
The tradition represented by the TOTBL can best be described as the essence of Anti-Cosmic Gnosticism expressed through the sinister forms of traditional Diabolism. Within our tradition, the Dark Ones (Gods and Goddesses of Sitra Ahra) represent the anti-archonic impulse of the Deus Absconditus and the manifested aspect of the second and left emanation from the Ain Sof. Thus, forus, Satan-Lucifer is the first and highest manifestation of the Black Light, and the opposer and destroyer of the cosmic prison/causal structures established by the tyrant demiurge.Within the TOTBL many forms of magical systems are studied and practiced, parallel to each other,as it is our conviction that the keys that will unlock the prison gates of the cosmic archons arespread throughout many different esoteric traditions. Our main goal is therefore to rediscover,remanifest, adapt and create the antinomian forms of spiritual practice that will lead the adept to Gnosis, hastening the revolution back towards the Unbound Fullness that was before the ordering of Chaos and the fall into causality


This may place it in a different light. It's Esoteric and Exoteric. On the Esoteric level, Chaos organized can be dispersed back to what the group perceives as the 'all', once that rugged dogma is broken down and the Adept is left to re-construct his 'existence' so to speak, its with the new foundation that thought compels action and those in the 'know' can move about in this life with a better outlook on what one seeks to manifest while living it.

 Quote:
The high magical and spiritual practice within the TOTBL is thus shaped in a way that will lead the initiate to a concrete and direct encounter with the Divine within and without.


Symbiosis. It's not much different than Gnostic Christianity really, just a different slant. If one builds the 'Kingdom of God' within, naturally it projects outward; though the two are a different 'species' so to speak. The Material and Ethereal.

Just my take anyway...
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#80639 - 09/30/13 02:36 AM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: SIN3]
N2SYN Offline
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Registered: 08/22/13
Posts: 17
Loc: Ohio,USA
I am currently studying the TOTBL and the MLO. The information I have thus far is that the Liber Azerate is in Swedish, Norwegian, Polish, Russian & Romanian. I have a Romanian friend who is soon translating it into english. I found an english copy though the DL ended up being corrupted.(horse shit). Anyway, Liber Azerate is not a complete grimoire. It only gives some philosophy, gnosis and some of the rituals (not many ) but powerful of the three paths that they found to be most potent anti-Kabbalah Qlippothic , Draconian Setianism, Sumerian, and Chao Gnosticism. The Liber Sitra Achra essentially contains the core workings of the TOTBL & MLO. The Liber Falxifer 1 & 2 books can be found online, the Falxifer books are of the
Templum Falcis Cruentis, a subgroup of the TOTBL. They are set to release a few more books, of which I stated above, as well as the third Falxifer, Draconian Setianism, Chaos Gnosticism, Sumerian, Liber Shemyazazel & there is an unreleased Quimbanda book that you cannot find anywhere.
Hope this helps!
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#80654 - 09/30/13 09:44 AM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: N2SYN]
The Zebu Offline
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Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1647
Loc: Orlando, FL
There is no current english translation of Liber Azerate, although the old TOTBL site (which you can find archived as a compiled PDF) does contain a large portion of translated selections. You'd be better off waiting for Liber Sitra Achra anyways, which is basically a more comprehensive and mature revision. If you really want to see what the hullabaloo is about, you can always plug the Swedish and Russian versions through a translator. It's not all that exciting. Some long boring litanies about Chaos and sacrificing a black cat to Lilith.

The book on Quimbanda (Vägen till det Vänstra Riket) was actually released many years ago, but never saw an English translation. You can occasionally find copies of it floating around for sale.

But in all honesty there have been much better books on the subject penned since then, namely Nicholaj Mattos De Frisvold's "Pomba Gira" and "Exu and the Quimbanda of Night and Fire". The Anti-Cosmic interpretation does not suit Quimbanda well anyways, since the Exu spirits are considered to be closely bound to the carnal world of matter.

I think the TOTBL eventually realized this, and now seem to have abandoned their attention to Quimbanda (NAA 218 peddled off all his Exu statues through Ixaxaar once he started devoting more time to his Falxifer cult)


Edited by The Zebu (09/30/13 09:48 AM)
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#80655 - 09/30/13 09:52 AM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: The Zebu]
N2SYN Offline
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Registered: 08/22/13
Posts: 17
Loc: Ohio,USA
Thank you for the heads up. I had found someone who was in the process of translating it into english, as I am still awaiting that.The PDF is essentially where I found most of my information. Seek and ye shall find,eh?
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#85529 - 03/05/14 07:28 PM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: N2SYN]
BaronVonShankly Offline
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Registered: 03/23/09
Posts: 169
Loc: London
http://www.ztmag.com/blog/news/?p=20736
Another TOBL affiliate has been found dead. They believe in ending your life by your "own hands once your life's mission is complete"
His previous band the devil's blood referenced the TOBL heavily and he also played live guitar for Watain on several occasions so he was in that crowd.

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#85533 - 03/05/14 09:25 PM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: BaronVonShankly]
SIN3 Offline
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Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 7190
Loc: Virginia
The article doesn't offer a lot of detail about the way he died. I did find This page in Dutch that confirms he died but no details about the death.

The Rumor appears to be linked to previous member suicides but no real details have been released as far as I can find.

Interesting interview HERE
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#85554 - 03/07/14 06:17 PM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: SIN3]
334forwardspin Offline
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Registered: 03/04/13
Posts: 509
Loc: Las Vegas,NV United States
I've mentioned here before that I used to 'drink the kool aid' so to speak about the Temple of the Black Light. Now, not so much but I'm fairly familiar with these guys and their views.

If this guy was a serious believer then him committing suicide could very well be the way he died. They view it as a sign of strength to die by your own hands after you've accomplished what you want in life, and not by old age. They are hoping to reach the Sitra Ahra by doing so, so the intent is not to end their existence.

It is hard to tell who is a serious believer among the bands who reference TOTBL since it has become more common since the suicide of Jon Nodtveidt from Dissection in 2006. They have sort of gained the 'true Satanism' image among a lot of metal fans. Watain is seen as the primary representation of TOTBL in the media, but even they didn't start referencing them as much until later in their careers. Of course, committing suicide in the name of TOTBL would be a pretty big sign of that if that is in fact what happened.

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#85557 - 03/07/14 07:16 PM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: 334forwardspin]
SIN3 Offline
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Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 7190
Loc: Virginia
It's certainly possible. Suicide on your own terms, I support. The "I've accomplished everything I set out to do..." thing, is a bit odd. These men were barely in their 30's. Some speculate that there was a pact, something like "If I make it as a Rock Star, I'll forfeit my life."

I guess we'll never know for sure.
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#85573 - 03/08/14 03:04 AM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: SIN3]
334forwardspin Offline
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Registered: 03/04/13
Posts: 509
Loc: Las Vegas,NV United States
Yeah, I remember Jon was 31 when he committed suicide. In his case, it is believed he had it planned out since his release from prison almost 2 years earlier. The details of what exactly each person set out to do would vary, and I guess in certain instances that could be done by one's 30s.

The goal may be to reach the highest level of your chosen craft, which could be done when your very young. Of course, it does seem like you would want to enjoy being on top for awhile before hanging it up. My guess would be that he just sort of felt as though it was time.

I was always a bit shaky on dying on your own terms, in my TOTBL days. I supported and understood the idea but doing it is a different matter. When I considered it, I thought 30s was too young, late 40s seemed better. The concept and the thinking behind it is interesting for me, though it's not something I'd consider at this point.

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#85603 - 03/09/14 10:01 AM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: 334forwardspin]
BaronVonShankly Offline
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Registered: 03/23/09
Posts: 169
Loc: London
I don't think these people kill themselves once they become a rock star etc. I think it's more based on the first dip in the wave for example with ST the band broke up he was on a new project which didn't have as much interest as the devil's blood so it wasn't as good as it was before. Therefore he saw himself as going down a level of where he was previously.
I agree with 334 it's the highest level and because of the dip he saw it as losing it.

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#85605 - 03/09/14 03:11 PM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: BaronVonShankly]
334forwardspin Offline
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Registered: 03/04/13
Posts: 509
Loc: Las Vegas,NV United States
Seeing a dip could be a reason, since a reason they give for supporting it is dying while your still strong, and not "begging for mercy on your deathbed" as they put it. I guess the mindset in that case would be that once your past your peak, all that's left is going downhill and it's time to move on to the afterlife stage.

Granted, a dip doesn't always mean that you'll never do better again, but perhaps he just figured he'd never top the Devil's Blood. It's all hard to say before more details come out, like SIN said we'll never know for sure I guess.

Every case is different though, from what I hear of Jon's case he never seemed to see a dip in the wave, but just that he had been at the highest level long enough, that 3 major albums was enough and that it was "time to go".

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#86812 - 04/25/14 05:38 AM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: Arkham]
Necrophilvs Offline
pledge


Registered: 04/09/14
Posts: 98
Loc: Finland
 Originally Posted By: Arkham

I got the Liber azerate but as far as i know, it is only avaible in Swedish at this time, but I've heard rumors telling that TOTBL will print English and German copies during 2007, but haven't seen anyone yet.


Anyone knows if the book is already available in English?
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#86814 - 04/25/14 06:19 AM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: Necrophilvs]
Desecrated Offline
pledge


Registered: 04/21/14
Posts: 50
Or does anybody know where one can buy it in swedish. I can only find the PDF and I want the real book.
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#87147 - 05/04/14 09:48 AM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: Desecrated]
Necrophilvs Offline
pledge


Registered: 04/09/14
Posts: 98
Loc: Finland
What about the Book of Sitra Achra? I've come across a pdf version of that book; what is its relation with the Liber Azerate and the TotBL?
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#87156 - 05/04/14 01:26 PM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: Necrophilvs]
The Zebu Offline
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Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1647
Loc: Orlando, FL
Liber Azerate is basically an earlier, less-refined "rough draft" version. It's kinda patchwork and contains a lot of visible influence from Thelema, Kenneth Grant, the Temple of Set, and the ONA. The TotBL had selections of it on their website until they bombed the whole thing two years ago and decided to go underground.

"The Book of Sitra Achra" is basically their 'new' foundation text for the 218 current, which seems more focused and had more work put into it, but I haven't read the whole thing so I can't say for certain.


Edited by The Zebu (05/04/14 01:28 PM)
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#87196 - 05/06/14 09:06 AM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: The Zebu]
Necrophilvs Offline
pledge


Registered: 04/09/14
Posts: 98
Loc: Finland
That's good to know, thanks for the info. It's not that I'm planning to study deeply TotBL philosophy and (anti)cosmovision, but I'd like to know what they defend, even if on a superficial level. Besides, the notorious "Dissection connection" also makes me interested, since I am fan of the band. I doubt that, however, as a worldly materialist, I will ever be gained to their anti-materialistic positions.

Edited by Necrophilvs (05/06/14 09:06 AM)
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#87200 - 05/06/14 10:25 AM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: The Zebu]
SIN3 Offline
stalker


Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 7190
Loc: Virginia
 Quote:
It's kinda patchwork and contains a lot of visible influence from Thelema, Kenneth Grant, the Temple of Set, and the ONA. The TotBL had selections of it on their website until they bombed the whole thing two years ago and decided to go underground.


I've been watching the series Fringe, I've just hit a batch of episodes centered around the ZFT (Zerstörung durch Fortschritte der Technologie), it may be confirmation bias on my part but I couldn't help but pick up on some 'themes' from the same influences.

Teaser
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#87350 - 05/10/14 05:34 PM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: Necrophilvs]
334forwardspin Offline
member


Registered: 03/04/13
Posts: 509
Loc: Las Vegas,NV United States
 Originally Posted By: Necrophilvs
That's good to know, thanks for the info. It's not that I'm planning to study deeply TotBL philosophy and (anti)cosmovision, but I'd like to know what they defend, even if on a superficial level. Besides, the notorious "Dissection connection" also makes me interested, since I am fan of the band. I doubt that, however, as a worldly materialist, I will ever be gained to their anti-materialistic positions.


If you don't have a deep interest, I wouldn't personally recommend buying the Book of Sitra Achra unless you don't have a problem throwing hundreds of dollars into just a slight interest. I would recommend searching for some old TOTBL scripts, as they are still up in bits and pieces. I'm not sure how many you've seen already, but here are a few.

I'd Google 'Chaosophic version of the Enuma Elish', which they used to have up. As you may know, they basically believe the universe began with the Sumerian creation story, but from the 'dark' side of it. This will basically tell you their take on that. Google TOTBL with 'Lucifer is Satan', 'Satan is the Lord of Evil' as two other sub topics from their site, to give you their takes on why they equate Lucifer and Satan together, and their view on 'evil' meaning a willingness to embrace that which is deemed evil. Those are just a few off the top of my head. The Gnostic Bible may be of a little help as well, and you may be able to read that for free at a bookstore. Try and find a list of the 24 Chaos-Gnostic Aphorisms as well, that can tell you a little about what they're about.

As I'm sure you expect, it's drizzled in 'Oh how scary!' language probably just to be dramatic, so you'll often have to look at it in a metaphorical sense. A lot of their message has some value to it(at least for me), you just have to kind of take what you like and discard the rest.

When you say you want to know what they defend, how do you mean? You seem to know a bit about what they are about, but what else are you looking for?

As for your take on their anti-materialistic stance, I sort of take a less extreme view of that. For me, it's more about seeing value in the non material, and a willingness to embrace those things at price of not having as much in material gain. I like some material things, and I'm sure even the staunch TOTBLers do as well, but for me the 'anti materialistic' viewpoint is more about being intrinsically motivated. My motivation for success is mostly pride as opposed to material gain for instance, so I often embrace goals that likely won't lead to any financial prosperity.


Edited by 334forwardspin (05/10/14 05:38 PM)

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#88252 - 05/30/14 09:21 PM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: 334forwardspin]
lou_cifer Offline
stranger


Registered: 04/22/14
Posts: 16
Must say always thought this group was a metallers social club,until i started workin at a music venue .
And discoverd that these are indeed very commited to there studies, rituals and beliefs .
but i find it also hard to believe that someone who makes decent amounts of euros and has an extensive merchandise line ,can be anti-materialistic.
one of those points where these guys contradict themselve , cant get my head arround the closed status of this order seeing that a band like watain performs some rituals on stage in fact they call there gigs rituals . why openly perform a ritual if u dont want to atract people to your organisation.
espacially in that nice of metal .

Also for me what turned me of, was the ritualistic use of animals .
cant really condone the slaughter of an animal for the use of its blood in a ritual . Nor food for that matter .

As far the mlo starting out as an mc , its true that nodveidt was a member of a mc called werewolf legion, also being a high ranking mlo totbl member is were the asumption comes from i think.


please forgive my grammer and spelling mistakes for i am an dutchie


Edited by lou_cifer (05/30/14 09:26 PM)

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#88259 - 05/30/14 10:50 PM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: lou_cifer]
numen Offline
member


Registered: 09/09/12
Posts: 218
One thing I do like about what the ToTBL has done thus far is the way in which they've (more recently) limited access to their material via price.

One thing I don't yet understand about them is why they don't kill themselves in more grandiose and liberating (for others) ways. The ONA published a "Rite of Acausal Existence" that illustrates what I mean by that.

Like old school Gnosticism it appears to be a self-limiting philosophy and so I suspect a flash in the pan given the acceleration of such processes in modern societies.

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#88268 - 05/31/14 03:22 AM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: numen]
lou_cifer Offline
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Registered: 04/22/14
Posts: 16

One thing I don't yet understand about them is why they don't kill themselves in more grandiose and liberating (for others) ways. The ONA published a "Rite of Acausal Existence" that illustrates what I mean by that.



Like old school Gnosticism it appears to be a self-limiting philosophy and so I suspect a flash in the pan given the acceleration of such processes in modern societies.


agree on both of those points you make:
them being muscians popular in there scene , there for getting the acclaim for the(esoteric) work might have accelerated these actions. No matter how strong minded you are if u get your ass kissed by everyone around you inc thousands of fans .Must magnefy that feeling of that peak or limit of earthly potenial

The music they make is pretty limitless by design, so i qeuss its human nature to limit yourself one way or the other .

Plus i wouldnt want my loved ones or my gf for that matter, find me wih my brains splatterd on the wall .



Edited by lou_cifer (05/31/14 03:27 AM)

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#88272 - 05/31/14 06:59 AM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: numen]
334forwardspin Offline
member


Registered: 03/04/13
Posts: 509
Loc: Las Vegas,NV United States
 Originally Posted By: numen
One thing I do like about what the ToTBL has done thus far is the way in which they've (more recently) limited access to their material via price.

One thing I don't yet understand about them is why they don't kill themselves in more grandiose and liberating (for others) ways. The ONA published a "Rite of Acausal Existence" that illustrates what I mean by that.

Like old school Gnosticism it appears to be a self-limiting philosophy and so I suspect a flash in the pan given the acceleration of such processes in modern societies.


For me, that's something that would serve as evidence of them not being the 'real deal'. They claim limiting access to their materials is for the sake of making people work to find them, so only those who truly desire it and are willing to do what it takes. The problem though, is this doesn't accomplish that. This means 'if you can spare over 300 dollars for a book, you get it'. With their 'anti materialistic' stance, this doesn't mesh. It seems to provide evidence to people's claims that they are only trying to promote Watain for merch.

It is in certain senses a limiting philosophy, but in truth most philosophies are. Certain ideals of self discipline meant for pursuing certain goals or attaining certain 'virtues' are likely to limit certain things. However, I think their idea is that it wouldn't be limiting to those who embrace the philosophy, because the 'good' outweighs the 'bad' in their eyes, and they're fine with the results of the limitations.

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#88273 - 05/31/14 07:15 AM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: lou_cifer]
334forwardspin Offline
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Registered: 03/04/13
Posts: 509
Loc: Las Vegas,NV United States
 Originally Posted By: lou_cifer
Must say always thought this group was a metallers social club,until i started workin at a music venue .
And discoverd that these are indeed very commited to there studies, rituals and beliefs .
but i find it also hard to believe that someone who makes decent amounts of euros and has an extensive merchandise line ,can be anti-materialistic.
one of those points where these guys contradict themselve , cant get my head arround the closed status of this order seeing that a band like watain performs some rituals on stage in fact they call there gigs rituals . why openly perform a ritual if u dont want to atract people to your organisation.
espacially in that nice of metal .

Also for me what turned me of, was the ritualistic use of animals .
cant really condone the slaughter of an animal for the use of its blood in a ritual . Nor food for that matter .

As far the mlo starting out as an mc , its true that nodveidt was a member of a mc called werewolf legion, also being a high ranking mlo totbl member is were the asumption comes from i think.


please forgive my grammer and spelling mistakes for i am an dutchie
I do agree, a lot of what they do doesn't seem to mesh. I wouldn't say making money promoting their ideas alone makes them hypocrites for the anti materialistic stance though. Their stance is more against conforming for the sake of materialism or popularity. Basically meaning, it's fine to make money off your message, but don't compromise the message for the sake of it. The high prices in attempt to limit access don't mesh though, because it limits access by money as opposed to by desire for the materials.

With the animal sacrifice, well I have to ask why you dislike animal sacrifice specifically. It's not something I personally like, but I wonder if you feel the same way about human sacrifice. The reason I ask is because there seems to be a stance at times against killing a non human animal, but not a human, but why?

If you have no problem killing a human, why would killing an animal bother you?

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#88274 - 05/31/14 07:31 AM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: 334forwardspin]
lou_cifer Offline
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With the animal sacrifice, well I have to ask why you dislike animal sacrifice specifically. It's not something I personally like, but I wonder if you feel the same way about human sacrifice. The reason I ask is because there seems to be a stance at times against killing a non human animal, but not a human, but why?

If you have no problem killing a human, why would killing an animal bother you?

Ive got the same stance on human sacrifice , atleast with the unprovoked killing off a human .
for me as a person there needs to be a justifiable reason to take that step self defense or the defense of family.
the reason i dont codone animal sacrife is because i feel more connection with animals then i have with my fellow humans ,this has to do with my youth growing up in a forrested part of belgium .And experiencing the beauty of wildlife . like i said i m an vegatarian because of my love for nature , nothing less nothing more . cheers

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#88276 - 05/31/14 07:46 AM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: lou_cifer]
334forwardspin Offline
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 Originally Posted By: lou_cifer
With the animal sacrifice, well I have to ask why you dislike animal sacrifice specifically. It's not something I personally like, but I wonder if you feel the same way about human sacrifice. The reason I ask is because there seems to be a stance at times against killing a non human animal, but not a human, but why?

If you have no problem killing a human, why would killing an animal bother you?

Ive got the same stance on human sacrifice , atleast with the unprovoked killing off a human .
for me as a person there needs to be a justifiable reason to take that step self defense or the defense of family.
the reason i dont codone animal sacrife is because i feel more connection with animals then i have with my fellow humans ,this has to do with my youth growing up in a forrested part of belgium .And experiencing the beauty of wildlife . like i said i m an vegatarian because of my love for nature , nothing less nothing more . cheers


That makes sense then, I was just reminded of the '11 Satanic Rules of the Earth'. LaVey condemns animal sacrifice, but never killing a human which always seemed strange to me. I actually am a vegetarian myself(with a few exceptions), but that's just because meat doesn't taste very good to me. Your view of eating meat is your own, personally though I don't see it since animals kill each other for food, that's nature.

I'm actually a 'forest rat' myself, I greatly enjoy spending time in the forests, and am looking forward to moving out of the desert to spend time in there again.

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#88278 - 05/31/14 08:01 AM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: 334forwardspin]
numen Offline
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In the case of human sacrifice it can be said that one is aiding the evolution of humanity by removing those of rotten character, providing a just consequence for the exhibition of such.

Other life on this planet rarely if ever exhibits "rotten character". The most conscious other-beings tend to also be the most empathetic, even across species (see: dolphin behavior).

Encouraging a vegetarian diet is actually quite bad for the planet as a whole so I'm not sure why you do that on the basis of a love of nature.

edit: this should have been a reply to "lou cifer"


Edited by numen (05/31/14 08:03 AM)
Edit Reason: clarity

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#88286 - 05/31/14 10:17 AM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: 334forwardspin]
Necrophilvs Offline
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 Originally Posted By: 334forwardspin



As for your take on their anti-materialistic stance, I sort of take a less extreme view of that. For me, it's more about seeing value in the non material, and a willingness to embrace those things at price of not having as much in material gain. I like some material things, and I'm sure even the staunch TOTBLers do as well, but for me the 'anti materialistic' viewpoint is more about being intrinsically motivated. My motivation for success is mostly pride as opposed to material gain for instance, so I often embrace goals that likely won't lead to any financial prosperity.


When I say material interests, I'm referring to pride as well, as other worldly motivations, such as greed, or envy, or love, or hate, or generosity for that matter. These are human, worldly, material emotions. I wasn't referring to materialism in the "consumerist" sense of the word, though I am aware it can be used with than meaning in mind. As LaVey said, pride attained through accomplishment rather than consumption. But that's also material, as opposed to other-worldly, über-esoteric cosmovisions of groups such as the ToTBL.

Regarding the animal sacrifices, I have an equally worldly reason to oppose it: I like animals. Almost every kind of animal. So, why kill them? If you need to slaughter a fucking bird to conjure up the emotions required for a Satanic ritual, why try to perform the ritual in the first place?

When it comes to human sacrifices, I'd venture to bring forth yet another material rationale: Satanism is about self-indulgence, and it's rather hard to be self-indulgent while in jail.


Edited by Necrophilvs (05/31/14 10:19 AM)
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#88288 - 05/31/14 11:01 AM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: Necrophilvs]
334forwardspin Offline
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So you feel as though pride in and of itself is a material desire, as well as other emotions? I can't say I agree there. For me, material motivations would only be being motivated by gaining actual material objects. Sure, pride is a 'worldly' emotion, but I wouldn't consider it material. As I said, I take the position that pride is the best motivation for pursuing a goal, as pride in accomplishment gives me more satisfaction than any material possession would(though some material possessions may be 'consellation prizes'

The TOTBL from what it seems doesn't have any objection to pride, or pursuing worldly goals. The theme of their Satanic suicides is 'when you have accomplished all you want to while on Earth', and they seem to frown on using the 'afterlife is better' position as an excuse to do nothing in life.

With animal sacrifice my question is more so why someone would have a 'moral' problem with it if they didn't have a problem with killing a human. I understand if someone doesn't see the point in killing an animal, but there's a difference in not seeing the need and actually having a 'moral objection' to something. For instance, I don't like to drink, but I don't have a moral problem with it. Basically, it seems strange to morally object to animal sacrifice if you don't give two shits about killing a human.

With human sacrifice, well I suppose that's where the whole 'self interest versus courage or adversarialism' comes in. In the eyes of more extreme forms of Satanism, said crimes are a part of the 'Satanic way', and that the risk comes with it. It's not my position personally, but it fits into some memes.

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#88289 - 05/31/14 11:01 AM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: Necrophilvs]
numen Offline
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 Quote:
If you need to slaughter a fucking bird to conjure up the emotions required for a Satanic ritual, why try to perform the ritual in the first place?


I don't believe that's the rationale employed by those who sacrifice animals. As such your rationale is in part a straw man.

 Quote:
When it comes to human sacrifices, I'd venture to bring forth yet another material rationale: Satanism is about self-indulgence, and it's rather hard to be self-indulgent while in jail.


Who says you have to go to jail? Who says there aren't considerations in Satanism beyond self-indulgence?

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#88291 - 05/31/14 12:01 PM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: numen]
antikarmatomic Offline
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General reply - from a moralistic perspective I have no issues with killing animals or people, for that matter.

I have killed animals before, and honestly felt literally nothing whatsoever about it. Chalk it up to teenage curiosity - and mere curiosity it was.

We're not talking birds or random squirrels here, either. Close range and pretty messy. Suffice it to say that while it's not something I'm ashamed of, it's definitely not something I'm terribly proud of either.

It produced no emotional reaction either which way; the experiments concluded with unsatisfactory results.

To each their own I guess.

What I would tend to question is exactly how much of a "sacrifice" it really is if you had no real emotional attachment to, or vital use of, said animal in the first place. Or exactly how "boundary pushing" it can really be if despite the gore and fur you're sorta left with a feeling of "meh - it's dead"

Unless you're talking manipulation of the life force excised in the death-throes of a living entity, which is questionable at assumption at best. *lest slaughterhouse workers be the greatest magicians of all.

W/r/t human sacrifice - again how much of a "sacrifice" is it to me at all if the victim is, not only of no use to me, but a detriment to the survival of myself and those I care about?

As for the "emotional charge" of breaking the ultimate taboo - in such cases I am quite certain I'd feel nothing at all except for that pressure of always having to look over my shoulder... and to what ends?

Cull society of those I deem unworthy? I am simply not that charitable.


Edited by antikarmatomic (05/31/14 12:07 PM)
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#88298 - 05/31/14 01:34 PM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: antikarmatomic]
lou_cifer Offline
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I'm actually a 'forest rat' myself, I greatly enjoy spending time in the forests, and am looking forward to moving out of the desert to spend time in there again. f

nowadays i live at the city were i was born , an industry city in the south of the netherlands , and also spend six years of my childhood. citys have an suffocating effect on me and every 3 or 4 weeks i hed out to my grandpas cabin out in the bulge .

Yeah right the over industrialized way of herdin and killing animals in a factory fashion or hunting helps evolution ??
for me as a person these ritualistic uses of animals just dont fly . you think what you want its your right cheers !!

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#88302 - 05/31/14 02:56 PM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: lou_cifer]
antikarmatomic Offline
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 Quote:
for me as a person these ritualistic uses of animals just dont fly
I hear ya' but for me it's not really a "moral" thing... it's just that it does nothing.

This is not to say that I'm a cold-blooded sociopath... shit... even the ending of Jet-Li's Fearless makes me cry :p just that when it comes to killing... you're basically just hastening the inevitable, subsequently it just doesn't "move" me. Seems neither right nor wrong... just pointless.
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#88306 - 05/31/14 03:34 PM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: antikarmatomic]
lou_cifer Offline
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i get that
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#88308 - 05/31/14 03:56 PM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: numen]
Necrophilvs Offline
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 Originally Posted By: numen
 Quote:
If you need to slaughter a fucking bird to conjure up the emotions required for a Satanic ritual, why try to perform the ritual in the first place?


I don't believe that's the rationale employed by those who sacrifice animals. As such your rationale is in part a straw man.

 Quote:
When it comes to human sacrifices, I'd venture to bring forth yet another material rationale: Satanism is about self-indulgence, and it's rather hard to be self-indulgent while in jail.


Who says you have to go to jail? Who says there aren't considerations in Satanism beyond self-indulgence?


What is the rationale behind animal sacrifice, then? Regarding the second question, please do murder someone, call it a "human sacrifice" and escape prison. By all means, do it. For myself, it wouldn't suit my interests. And yes, Satanism is all about my own interests.

Anyway, I wouldn't say my objection to killing is moral, in the absolute sense of the word. I'd kill a dog if it posed a threat to me or to the ones I like. I'd do the same thing to a person, if the same preconditions were in order. Hell, I'd love to slit the throats of many people in this fucked up world, but I simply don't want to wind up in jail or risk my personal freedom for it. As everything, my morals are relative and if I might condemn you for killing a stray cat for no reason, I might praise you the next minute for getting our streets rid of a unwanted dangerous dog. But we are talking about ritualistic practices, and in my view killing animals (human or otherwise) in such a context is completely pointless.


Edited by Necrophilvs (05/31/14 04:14 PM)
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#88324 - 05/31/14 06:05 PM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: 334forwardspin]
Czereda Online
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Registered: 03/14/11
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 Quote:
LaVey condemns animal sacrifice, but never killing a human which always seemed strange to me.


I think he regarded animals and children as somehow innocent and uncorrupted. He also never advocated the destruction (by ritual means only, he was against breaking the law) of undeserving people, only those who harmed you. So destroying them is in your interest.

 Quote:
With animal sacrifice my question is more so why someone would have a 'moral' problem with it if they didn't have a problem with killing a human.


I don't think it is the matter of morality. LaVey advocated the destruction of your enemies, those who deliberately harmed you or pose a threat to you or your loved ones. It's more like self preservation. A destruction ritual is a punishment of your enemies, it's not a typical sacrifice.

As for the ONA, it doesn't regard killing animals as something not "moral". Hunting is one of the skills/tasks required in the practice of the 7-fold Way. I only don't remember the grade, neophyte I think, but I'm not sure.

First you kill a rabbit, then a human being.
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#88331 - 05/31/14 09:10 PM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: Czereda]
numen Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Necrophilvs

What is the rationale behind animal sacrifice, then?


Usually something to do with either appeasing or propitiating spirits, using a scapegoat, or using their 'lifeforce' for your own ends.

 Originally Posted By: czereda

As for the ONA, it doesn't regard killing animals as something not "moral".


True but they regard animal sacrifice as weak sauce.

 Quote:

First you kill a rabbit, then a human being.


It doesn't have to be a rabbit. You've been talking to Khk. It also involves skinning and eating the game.

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#88335 - 05/31/14 09:52 PM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: numen]
antikarmatomic Offline
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 Quote:
Usually something to do with either appeasing or propitiating spirits, using a scapegoat, or using their 'lifeforce' for your own ends.


It has no effect. Been there; done that. Just a pointless mess and interesting colors.

 Quote:

True but they regard animal sacrifice as weak sauce.
oh good. I agree.

 Quote:
It also involves skinning and eating the game.
why not try eating the uncooked innards for grits and shiggles? No effect. It tastes like a bloody nose and stank body fluids, though the texture is (at best) passable - it's just dead and I'm no better off for having tried it.


Edited by antikarmatomic (05/31/14 09:57 PM)
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#88338 - 05/31/14 10:15 PM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: antikarmatomic]
numen Offline
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 Quote:

It has no effect.


Your inability is really no evidence. I'm also not mounting a defense of such practices beyond pointing out the ignorance in certain assertions.

 Quote:

why not try eating the uncooked innards for grits and shiggles?


Not really the point. Why do you think ONA would suggest killing, skinning, cooking, and eating a game animal using only a bow or crossbow for the killing?

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#88341 - 05/31/14 10:47 PM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: numen]
antikarmatomic Offline
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 Quote:

Not really the point. Why do you think ONA would suggest killing, skinning, cooking, and eating a game animal using only a bow or crossbow for the killing?


sport, I guess? The chase? Getting back to my more primal roots I would imagine... but it's just... something I have no real moral issue with. While I never explicitly shot a deer I've helped skin one and ate it too... it was yummy (it really is)... it just doesn't phase me.

Now, a crossbow... that's upping the game a notch - I respect that. Never tried one and never knew anyone who had... 'cept some crazy-cat friend of mine I knew back in the day who snagged turkey illegally with a compound bow - if that counts. Tossed the corpse away - killing for teh lolz.

Anyway, I'm just saying killing things and even some really terrible things I have done (which I prefer to keep to myself) has no effect - maybe I'm ignorant - sure... then again gay porn doesn't get me hard either. To each their own, I suppose.


Edited by antikarmatomic (05/31/14 11:46 PM)
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#88359 - 06/01/14 05:21 AM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: numen]
Necrophilvs Offline
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 Originally Posted By: numen
 Originally Posted By: Necrophilvs

What is the rationale behind animal sacrifice, then?


Usually something to do with either appeasing or propitiating spirits, using a scapegoat, or using their 'lifeforce' for your own ends.


Ah right, so it's all about pleasing the "spirits"! Well, the best of luck in their endeavors.

As to the rest, "lifeforce", vital energy, or whatever you want to call is conjured up in Satanic magic through the building up of emotions, as LaVey profusely exemplified in TSB and TSR. If you can't do it by yourself, it's pointless to try to perform the ritual in the first place. But, as antikarmatomic says, to each his own.
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#88360 - 06/01/14 05:45 AM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: Necrophilvs]
Naama Offline
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Sorry for interfering in your conversation, guys.
Don't forget that LaVey was trying to create an official organization which would be recognized by government.
In such case - some adjustments are a MUST.
Surely he would not (technically)succeed in creating an officially recognized organization if he, let's say,
would state that things should be done "old-school traditional" way.
He had to prove (so to say) to the government that his Satanism is social and not harmful.( And a pink ribbon on the side...)

I personally, think that actual blood-letting during the murder of an animal (or human, whatever sacrifice we talking about) is much stronger action than
sending rays of "dark energy thoughts" towards anyone.
(somehow in our society we still have hit-men and killers, right?
black magic alone solely on the mental level sometimes works, sometimes it's not enough).
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#88369 - 06/01/14 11:07 AM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: Naama]
Necrophilvs Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Naama
Sorry for interfering in your conversation, guys.
Don't forget that LaVey was trying to create an official organization which would be recognized by government.
In such case - some adjustments are a MUST.
Surely he would not (technically)succeed in creating an officially recognized organization if he, let's say,
would state that things should be done "old-school traditional" way.
He had to prove (so to say) to the government that his Satanism is social and not harmful.( And a pink ribbon on the side...)


I hear you on that, and I doubt LaVey would have any moral issues with taking care of our enemies physically, despite the need to state the contrary in public. Still, I don't believe he wasn't honest about the (lack of) necessity of animal sacrifices in the literal sense. Otherwise, they would be tolerated (off-record, of course) within the CoS, and they weren't, at least to my knowledge.
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#88392 - 06/01/14 04:56 PM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: Naama]
Czereda Online
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Registered: 03/14/11
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 Originally Posted By: Naama
Don't forget that LaVey was trying to create an official organization which would be recognized by government.
In such case - some adjustments are a MUST.
Surely he would not (technically)succeed in creating an officially recognized organization if he, let's say,
would state that things should be done "old-school traditional" way.
He had to prove (so to say) to the government that his Satanism is social and not harmful.( And a pink ribbon on the side...)


True to some extent, but I think if LaVey sacrificed a chicken or a pigeon to Satan from time to time, nobody would make a fuss about it. He seems to condemn killing animals more than killing humans. He calls those practicing animal sacrifices sanctimonious cowards, who have no balls to kill humans so they choose helpless, innocent and undeserving victims - animals.

The "white" magician, wary of the consequences involved in the killing of a human being, naturally utilizes birds, or other "lower" creatures in his ceremonies. It seems these sanctimonious wretches feel no guilt in the taking of a non-human life, as opposed to a human's.

 Quote:
I personally, think that actual blood-letting during the murder of an animal (or human, whatever sacrifice we talking about) is much stronger action than
sending rays of "dark energy thoughts" towards anyone.


According to LaVey, the release of life force is not effected in the spilling of blood but in "the death throes of the living creature" and the same energy can be released through any profound heightening of emotions, like sexual orgasm, anger, fury, fear, grief and so on. Therefore sexual orgasm achieved through masturbation or venting your anger during the destruction ritual has even stronger effect than sacrificing an animal.

For LaVey, killing an animal is an act of cowardice, a poor substitute for a greater sacrifice done through the release of energy from your own body, an escape from releasing your strong blasphemous emotions during a ritual:

These poor conscience-stricken fools, who have been calling themselves witches and warlocks, would sooner chop the head off a goat or chicken in an attempt to harness its death agony, than have the "blasphemous" bravery to masturbate in full view of the Jehovah whom they claim to deny! The only way these mystical cowards can ritualistically release themselves is through the agony of another's death (actually their own, by proxy) rather than the indulgent force which produces life!

This always gives me a chuckle. \:\)

 Originally Posted By: Numen
Why do you think ONA would suggest killing, skinning, cooking, and eating a game animal using only a bow or crossbow for the killing?


To get in touch with your primal nature, perhaps, that nature uncontaminated by civilization. The prehistoric people were mostly gatherers or hunters using primitive weapons. And, as antikarmatomic said, for sport. Chasing a rabbit is more fun than killing it, just like a cat playing with a mouse.


Edited by Czereda (06/01/14 04:57 PM)
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#88401 - 06/01/14 07:15 PM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: Naama]
antikarmatomic Offline
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 Quote:
Sorry for interfering in your conversation, guys.


you can post, so post - it's not an interruption.

If you're into the whole blood letting thing... well, be my guest... just don't mess up my sheets with it - ya know?

Wanna kill animals? Cool, but I can promise you that stabbing ones eyes out isn't really all that cool. There is literally nothing to sell me-on w/r/t it... I've done that and "it is suck"

Don't take my word for it - go kill things if that gets you hard/wet. But see it for what it is - a fetish.

Or at best a taboo to break... but I shit you not, ya know what happens when you cross that line? Just a mess to clean up.

Go 'head and try it - I did once upon a time... I think nothing less of those who have, either... put it is so pointless - cuz death come to all things... ya just end up being the one having to hide the bones and playing janitor.

Not worth it.
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#88415 - 06/01/14 11:31 PM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: numen]
lou_cifer Offline
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the ona is one person ,operating under different names .
i read some his stuff very knowldgeble but stll. cant really get behind it . to much smoke mirrors and charlatan praticis. if i liked that i wouldnt have denounced the roman catholic church XD


Edited by lou_cifer (06/01/14 11:32 PM)

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#88421 - 06/02/14 02:47 AM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: numen]
Dimitri Offline
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[quick reply]
When it comes to animal and human sacrifices, the taboo is one of sheer social and authoritative fear. Let's forget about limiting human sacrifice to your enemies. Do it with a random person. The essence of the ritual is getting intimate with the expiration of any living creature and the easiness on how it is attained.

 Originally Posted By: Czerada
A destruction ritual is a punishment of your enemies, it's not a typical sacrifice.

A destruction ritual invokes destruction tout cours. Limitation to "your enemies" is just a self-imposed moral construct for validation. It misses the actual goal of the ritual.
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#88520 - 06/03/14 11:50 AM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: lou_cifer]
numen Offline
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Posts: 218
 Originally Posted By: lou_cifer
the ona is one person ,operating under different names .


The evidence you have for this assertion must be solid. You should present it for the rest of us to peruse. I wouldn't want people to think you're asserting your opinions as fact.

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#88521 - 06/03/14 11:57 AM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: Dimitri]
numen Offline
member


Registered: 09/09/12
Posts: 218
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri

When it comes to animal and human sacrifices, the taboo is one of sheer social and authoritative fear. Let's forget about limiting human sacrifice to your enemies. Do it with a random person. The essence of the ritual is getting intimate with the expiration of any living creature and the easiness on how it is attained.


Well that was a very mundane response and just what I'd expect from a person of a certain physis.

 Quote:
A destruction ritual invokes destruction tout cours. Limitation to "your enemies" is just a self-imposed moral construct for validation. It misses the actual goal of the ritual.


What is the goal of a destruction ritual, in your opinion, Dimitri? How does one carry out such a ritual? When would it be done and why?

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#88557 - 06/03/14 05:08 PM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: numen]
Czereda Online
senior member


Registered: 03/14/11
Posts: 2092
Loc: Poland
 Quote:
What is the goal of a destruction ritual, in your opinion, Dimitri? How does one carry out such a ritual? When would it be done and why?


I think it all depends on an individual. Normally, it is releasing your emotions of anger and hatred and directing them against your target. Such strong emotions are a source of adrenaline and such powerful energy can be sent to your enemy. Of course, if you believe in this shit, that somehow you can influence your target's unconscious from afar.

For some it is a mere psychodrama, its purpose being purely cathartic. There is nothing more to it, except releasing your emotions. On Letters to the Devil forum, one CoS priest wrote that the destruction ritual could be simply writing your enemy's name on a piece of paper and flushing it down the toilet. What is a better way to show your disdain? No need for a white candle, a doll and pins, elaborate invocations and so on. The wretch who hurt you doesn't deserve even that.

In case of the ONA, it would be different. If I remember well, all the personal and emotional bias against the victims is discouraged. It's more cold-hearted calculation. The opfers should not be your personal enemies and you shouldn't let anger cloud your judgement. Perhaps, this is what Dimitri meant.

The tricky thing about the destruction ritual is that it can hurt not only the targeted victim but also all those who have contact with him or her. Blanche Barton claims in her biography of Anton LaVey that Jayne Mansfield was such an innocent victim of the ritual directed against her abusive lover. Her only fault was that she was with him in the car.
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#88620 - 06/04/14 04:13 AM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: numen]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3314
 Quote:
Well that was a very mundane response and just what I'd expect from a person of a certain physis.

You do realise that the response I gave entails unbiased random murder right? Only for the mere sake of getting intimate and acknowledging that the uncaring and cruel nature, that is nature, also resides within every human being.

 Quote:
What is the goal of a destruction ritual, in your opinion, Dimitri?

Just what the names says. Destruction.
 Quote:
How does one carry out such a ritual?

With knives, poison, bats, guns or any other instrument that's fit.
 Quote:
When would it be done and why?

Own choosing.

You see, you're wired into the symbolism and spiritual to the extend that mundane actions and ritual prescriptions become the way of living. My Satan(ism) is of the crueller and more practical kind of way. If you say, to me, "destruction ritual" I'll be taking a few minutes of preparation (protective combat gear and such) before destroying stuff or someone in the quite literal way. As it has been supposed that way.

Sure it might be seen as a mundane kind of thinking. But I prefer that way above the fluffication of Satanic ritual where written paper is being thrown in the toilet after dedicating it to a mere historical symbol.

Bringing the "psycho" back in psychodrama.
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#88641 - 06/04/14 10:49 AM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: Dimitri]
SIN3 Offline
stalker


Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 7190
Loc: Virginia
to Numen:

So is it mundane to physically destroy a person or mundane to consider it a spiritual endeavor?

Just wanted to clarify ;\)
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#88679 - 06/04/14 12:18 PM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: Dimitri]
numen Offline
member


Registered: 09/09/12
Posts: 218
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri

You do realise that the response I gave entails unbiased random murder right?
Oh yes, that was clear.

 Quote:

Just what the names says. Destruction.


...

 Quote:

With knives, poison, bats, guns or any other instrument that's fit.


...

 Quote:
 Originally Posted By: numen
When would it be done and why?

Own choosing.


Ah. Any reason as good as any other?

 Quote:
You see, you're wired into the symbolism and spiritual to the extend that mundane actions and ritual prescriptions become the way of living.


Whatever gave you that idea?

 Quote:
My Satan(ism) is of the crueller and more practical kind of way.


Of course it is.

 Quote:
If you say, to me, "destruction ritual" I'll be taking a few minutes of preparation (protective combat gear and such) before destroying stuff or someone in the quite literal way. As it has been supposed that way.


I'm not sure why you think that's relevant.

 Quote:
Sure it might be seen as a mundane kind of thinking. But I prefer that way above the fluffication of Satanic ritual where written paper is being thrown in the toilet after dedicating it to a mere historical symbol.


As is typical you seem to have missed the point.

 Quote:
Bringing the "psycho" back in psychodrama.


I'm sure you'd like people to think of you that way.

It's cute in a saccharin way.
.

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#88683 - 06/04/14 12:20 PM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: SIN3]
numen Offline
member


Registered: 09/09/12
Posts: 218
 Originally Posted By: SIN3
to Numen:

So is it mundane to physically destroy a person or mundane to consider it a spiritual endeavor?

Just wanted to clarify ;\)


I'm going to assume this was said with tongue firmly implanted in cheek. ;\)

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#88687 - 06/04/14 12:23 PM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: numen]
SIN3 Offline
stalker


Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 7190
Loc: Virginia
Indeed. It was.

\:\)
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#88688 - 06/04/14 12:24 PM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: numen]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3314
 Originally Posted By: numen
Whatever gave you that idea?

If you're asking about goals, performance, reason and time, it's pretty nice indicator you're being stuck in one spiritual system or another.

Get off the pony. You're not in a heightened position.
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#88729 - 06/04/14 02:51 PM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: Dimitri]
numen Offline
member


Registered: 09/09/12
Posts: 218
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
 Originally Posted By: numen
Whatever gave you that idea?

If you're asking about goals, performance, reason and time, it's pretty nice indicator you're being stuck in one spiritual system or another.


It requires a spiritual tradition to concern oneself with the reasons one acts, one's performance, to make goals or to have concern for timing? What a strange little world you live in.

 Quote:
Get off the pony. You're not in a heightened position.


Better quit while you're ahead. You seem unable to grasp the points others make using the English language and rather given to making stupid assumptions and committing to flawed logic with relentless fervor. It's almost like reading an adherent to a religion.


Edited by numen (06/04/14 02:56 PM)

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#88731 - 06/04/14 02:56 PM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: numen]
SIN3 Offline
stalker


Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 7190
Loc: Virginia
 Quote:
You seem unable to grasp the points others make using the English language and rather given to making stupid assumptions and committing to flawed logic with relentless fervor


No matter how many times I read this from various users, I don't see Dimi making any sort of adjustments or improvements in this area.

Is it because he's just another animal?

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#88737 - 06/04/14 03:06 PM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: SIN3]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3314
 Originally Posted By: Numen
It requires a spiritual tradition to concern oneself with the reasons one acts, one's performance, to make goals or to have concern for timing? What a strange little world you live in.

I believe you were initially asking about my take on the destruction ritual? I shared my general stance on rituals tout cours. I haven't spoken about the reasons of anyone's actions or goals. Pay attention.
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#88749 - 06/04/14 03:24 PM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: Dimitri]
numen Offline
member


Registered: 09/09/12
Posts: 218
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri

I believe you were initially asking about my take on the destruction ritual? I shared my general stance on rituals tout cours. I haven't spoken about the reasons of anyone's actions or goals. Pay attention.


It's clear that you need other people to pay attention to your gabble but you'll have to produce something worthy of consideration to be taken seriously. As you can't seem to keep your own arguments, such as they are, in order it seems that now is not that time.
.

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#88751 - 06/04/14 03:28 PM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: numen]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3314
It's also painfully clear that when people disagree with you, or share a different opinion, are automatically labelled as mundane and viewed as inferior.

I'll be eagerly awaiting the day you can act as an individual instead of a brainless ONA-pawn you've shown yourself to be.
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#88757 - 06/04/14 03:59 PM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: Dimitri]
numen Offline
member


Registered: 09/09/12
Posts: 218
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
It's also painfully clear that when people disagree with you, or share a different opinion, are automatically labelled as mundane and viewed as inferior.


The word mundane, as I use it as a noun, denotes a person of a particular physis. As I use it as an adjective it describes actions and ideas descriptive of or peculiar to or characteristic of a person of that particular physis. As I've said this before clearly and without obfuscation and even, in part, described useful indicators of that physis I can only think that you haven't been... paying attention.

 Quote:
I'll be eagerly awaiting the day you can act as an individual instead of a brainless ONA-pawn you've shown yourself to be.


Interesting that you snap and snarl like a caged animal when confronted with your own inadequacies. If you, or others, think I am a pawn of the ONA what is that to me? Perhaps next I will be Chloe, or even Anton Long! Regardless, ad hominem doesn't really help your case.

In terms of intelligence and erudition I think being able to make and maintain a point is a useful indicator. I think that being able to disagree by making and maintaining points is also a useful indicator.

.

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#88761 - 06/04/14 04:25 PM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: numen]
Czereda Online
senior member


Registered: 03/14/11
Posts: 2092
Loc: Poland
 Originally Posted By: Numen
You seem unable to grasp the points others make using the English language and rather given to making stupid assumptions and committing to flawed logic with relentless fervor. It's almost like reading an adherent to a religion.


Perhaps, instead of making ad hominem remarks, you could actually explain what is wrong with Dimitri's thinking in your opinion and also present your own view on the destruction ritual. That would add something useful to the discussion, because what you're doing now is simple shit slinging.

Not every Satanist conducts rituals or even acknowledges the power of magic. Some consider everything you're somehow dedicated to as a sort of a ritual. Given that, I'm not sure what your beef with Dimitri is. If you could elaborate on it...

 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
I'll be eagerly awaiting the day you can act as an individual instead of a brainless ONA-pawn you've shown yourself to be.


The ONA doesn't need individuals. And too much thinking can be a pain in the ass. Which Arab would want his camel to be a freethinker?


Edited by Czereda (06/04/14 04:30 PM)
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Crazy Cat Lady

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#88764 - 06/04/14 04:42 PM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: numen]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3314
 Originally Posted By: numen
The word mundane, as I use it as a noun, denotes a person of a particular physis. As I use it as an adjective it describes actions and ideas descriptive of or peculiar to or characteristic of a person of that particular physis. As I've said this before clearly and without obfuscation and even, in part, described useful indicators of that physis I can only think that you haven't been... paying attention.

That's a lot of words you're using. Why not call a kettle a kettle my dear boy? Would it harm your vibe you're trying to communicate? That would be quite a shame..

 Originally Posted By: numen
In terms of intelligence and erudition I think being able to make and maintain a point is a useful indicator. I think that being able to disagree by making and maintaining points is also a useful indicator.

Beating the bush and trying to obfuscate the quite apparent true intention is also a useful indicator...but not for intelligence.

 Originally Posted By: Czerada
Perhaps, instead of making ad hominem remarks, you could actually explain what is wrong with Dimitri's thinking in your opinion and also present your own view on the destruction ritual.

I'm fairly convinced his initial answer was fuelled by emotional disagreement. The very idea of murdering a random human being for the sake of getting intimate with the uncaring and random cruelty that resides within the self is a step too far. It lacks the emotional justification of choosing an opfer based on personal (or the groups) dislike. Not to mention it entails a hands-on approach instead of remaining seated in the philosophers comfy chair.

A Satanism too far it would seem.


Edited by Dimitri (06/04/14 05:00 PM)
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#88791 - 06/04/14 07:58 PM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: Dimitri]
numen Offline
member


Registered: 09/09/12
Posts: 218
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri

That's a lot of words you're using.


I prefer precision in communication. Was that more clear for you?

 Quote:

Why not call a kettle a kettle my dear boy?


Oh. I guess not since I did just "call a kettle a kettle." I'm female by the way. I thought you valued paying attention?

 Quote:

Beating the bush and trying to obfuscate the quite apparent true intention is also a useful indicator...but not for intelligence.


Tell me my true intention since it is so readily apparent. Everything I've said on this topic has been stated plainly and without obfuscation. Are you paranoid, lacking in English skills, or both?

 Quote:

I'm fairly convinced his initial answer was fuelled by emotional disagreement.


You're easily convinced of your own baseless conjectures. ;\)

 Quote:

The very idea of murdering a random human being for the sake of getting intimate with the uncaring and random cruelty that resides within the self is a step too far.


It's merely indicative of a certain type of physis. The particular type you reference lacks honour, culture, and empathy.

 Quote:

It lacks the emotional justification of choosing an opfer based on personal (or the groups) dislike.


I think it would do you good to read "A Gift for the Prince." You clearly have no understanding of how ONA culls or why, much less how my people do, or why.

 Quote:
Not to mention it entails a hands-on approach instead of remaining seated in the philosophers comfy chair.


I somehow doubt you'd know anything about that. If you want to provide some evidence you've ever gone beyond your comfy chair that's fine. Making assertions about the deeds (or lack thereof) of others from the position of an unproven and anonymous person on the internet is rather amusing.

 Quote:
A Satanism too far it would seem.


There's nothing Satanic about it.

.

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#88811 - 06/05/14 01:53 AM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: numen]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3314
As per usual, like any other ONA-discussion by the e-crowd, it boils down a yay/nay thing with the necessary shit-slinging.

 Originally Posted By: numen
's merely indicative of a certain type of physis. The particular type you reference lacks honour, culture, and empathy.

You are quite quick with the general assessment.
I'm not going to disagree with the lack of empathy. That of honour and culture.. well... it is obvious you're not of "my kind" (interpret that as you please) so something as "kindred honour" need not to be applied. There's also the fact we're from a different culture which entails different outlooks. So really, you expect me to comply and accept yours? Funny kid you are.

 Originally Posted By: numen
I think it would do you good to read "A Gift for the Prince." You clearly have no understanding of how ONA culls or why, much less how my people do, or why.

Oh don't be too sure about that. The reason I stated what I stated is because I thought ONA is still a bit on the weak side. They're not shifting an individuals paradigm to its full potential and have left room for jumping back into a comfort zone.

 Originally Posted By: numen
Making assertions about the deeds (or lack thereof) of others from the position of an unproven and anonymous person on the internet is rather amusing.

I can't disagree with you there. But words do indicate a certain physis and experience for those who can see.
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#88824 - 06/05/14 08:29 AM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: numen]
Czereda Online
senior member


Registered: 03/14/11
Posts: 2092
Loc: Poland
 Quote:
 Quote:
The very idea of murdering a random human being for the sake of getting intimate with the uncaring and random cruelty that resides within the self is a step too far.
It's merely indicative of a certain type of physis. The particular type you reference lacks honour, culture, and empathy.


 Quote:
There's nothing Satanic about it.


Random killings are also something practiced by the ONA, at least theoretically. Terrorist attacks, inciting a war or culling the "sworn enemy", they all involve murdering random people for the sake of achieving some vague aeonic goal, pushing your limits or just showing the whole mundane world how damn sinister and evil you are. Look... presencing the dark.

I see kiddo, you prefer personal attacks to beating down the arguments. Or maybe, just like Chloe, you think we aint good enough for you. It's quite lame, you know?


Edited by Czereda (06/05/14 08:38 AM)
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Crazy Cat Lady

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#88827 - 06/05/14 09:56 AM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: Dimitri]
SIN3 Offline
stalker


Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 7190
Loc: Virginia
 Quote:
It's also painfully clear that when people disagree with you, or share a different opinion, are automatically labelled as mundane and viewed as inferior.


Maybe that's just you. I've often disagreed or held a different opinion and don't recall a single instance of having been called inferior or mundane by this user.

*shrugs*
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#88832 - 06/05/14 10:19 AM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: Dimitri]
numen Offline
member


Registered: 09/09/12
Posts: 218
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
As per usual, like any other ONA-discussion by the e-crowd, it boils down a yay/nay thing with the necessary shit-slinging.


If you don't like shit slinging, perhaps not slinging shit would help. Your 'record' indicates that you do enjoy it so perhaps it's a bit asinine to complain in this particular way.

 Quote:
You are quite quick with the general assessment.


Do you know what is meant by the word physis or more properly φύσις?

 Quote:
So really, you expect me to comply and accept yours?


No, I really don't. You are who and what you are.

 Quote:
The reason I stated what I stated is because I thought ONA is still a bit on the weak side.


And of course might is right. *yawn*

 Quote:
They're not shifting an individuals paradigm to its full potential and have left room for jumping back into a comfort zone.


In what way?

 Quote:
But words do indicate a certain physis and experience for those who can see.


Yes, they can.
.

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#96522 - 02/07/15 06:30 PM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: numen]
briansatan666 Offline
lurker


Registered: 12/31/14
Posts: 1
Hello I hope not to disturb or interrupt all kindness would ask if you could explain what is the MLO their beliefs and whether they have prayers or prayers please I would like to soak on the subject if you can see this message I ask help
MANY THANKS

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#96523 - 02/07/15 07:18 PM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: briansatan666]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3996
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Here, let me google that for you.
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#101157 - 06/27/15 03:55 AM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: Kelow]
Blood Cleric Offline
stranger


Registered: 05/28/15
Posts: 39
Loc: California
If your interested in Liber Azerate I have a copy I might be able to scan to you via email if you'd ever want to message me we can exchange emails. Personally not my glass of Absinthe but Chaos Gnosis as a subject seems unique in it's anti-cosmic approach.
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#105506 - 02/12/16 04:00 PM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: N2SYN]
Enemy of Christ Offline
stranger


Registered: 08/21/15
Posts: 7
Loc: Virginia
Any luck translating Liber Azerate into English? All current versions I have found online are half assed attempts.

Edited by Enemy of Christ (02/12/16 04:01 PM)
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#105507 - 02/12/16 04:17 PM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: briansatan666]
Enemy of Christ Offline
stranger


Registered: 08/21/15
Posts: 7
Loc: Virginia
You can find rough English translations of Liber Azerate, but the Book of Sitra Ahra is the more refined system they employ. But more focus recently has been put upon the Cult of Qayin sub group centered around the teachings of Liber Falxifer I and II ,which can also be found online. Liber Falxifer III was just released as well.
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#110022 - 11/06/16 09:25 AM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: Enemy of Christ]
Persona non grata Offline
member


Registered: 01/27/15
Posts: 469
 Originally Posted By: Enemy of Christ
You can find rough English translations of Liber Azerate, but the Book of Sitra Ahra is the more refined system they employ. But more focus recently has been put upon the Cult of Qayin sub group centered around the teachings of Liber Falxifer I and II ,which can also be found online. Liber Falxifer III was just released as well.

Ignore the Cult of Qayin. Its a bookstore more than a philosophy or tradition. People these days will buy all manner of books to feel like they 'belong' to a group that primarily wants their money, which in my opinion places those groups on par with Christianity, except Christianity is much better at it. Crosses, Pentacles, and Dragons; just slap it on a book and call it sinister, and suckers will line up with twenty dollar bills in their hands.

Liber Azerate is available in plain English, and has been for a while now. I personally know one of the guys who spent quite a bit of time translating, and I had several early peaks at the rather frustrating read, as it evolved, all years ago, and pre Qayin, of course. Those paying attention can note a stark difference between ToTBL before and after we saw Martinet Press and others such distributions pop up, and out of nowhere everyone had to sell a book about something, as if the content didn't even matter, so long as everyone bought the whole collection, and posted pictures of them in their Temple/bedroom, on their Alter/nightstand... At least I was in contact with actual people from ToTBL sects, I built a real alter, even if I Ali didn't like that my incense got ashes on it, and the books that I advocated had free versions, and I had written them myself.

The "interneticity" of it all, if I may coin the term, cheapened and spread thin, the depth and seriousness of prior content and activity which I had personally experienced. Those behind the scenes, those adults not seeking attention, at least in my case, were much more mature, and much less concerned with selling something or establishing a public "name" for themselves. Several Norwegians and a few Americans spent countless hours and months discussing and comparing views with me, introducing me to notions that seemed alien at the time, which touched me in a way that has become more meaningful as the years have passed, considering the continuation of the book club situation, and the less than obvious personal interactions which many now shy away from, due to the hype and childishness of the Facebook culture. I can tell you now that the welcome, education, and instruction, which I received from those personal interactions, cannot be found in any of those books for sell. Buy them all, and you will not know 218.

Its actually very interesting, and not so well known, that a large portion of the guys involved in translating and producing the modern text, are either active or retired American Military. Frater Noctis as he was called then, was one of the late callers, calling in from Korea, during my old interview with Ali on Poison Apple Radio. Another caller was from Hyperborean Elitism Nexion. Either way, if you would truly know ToTBL, pass on the books, and track down a member. Impress them with a genuine interest. They won't try to sell you anything, you have my word.

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#117132 - 10/07/18 08:28 AM Re: The Temple of the Black Light and MLO [Re: Magus]
Magus Offline
lurker


Registered: 10/07/18
Posts: 3
This is the correct link in englsih

https://pt.scribd.com/doc/164351659/Liber-Azerate-semi-english

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