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#97162 - 03/04/15 01:05 PM Re: Religious Animal Sacrifice [Re: SIN3]
JamesSTL Offline
member


Registered: 11/29/13
Posts: 312
Loc: St. Louis
 Originally Posted By: SIN3
I don't know that its arbitrary. These animals aren't being killed at whim, they serve a very specific purpose whether as symbol or carrier.


I was saying that if the selection were arbitrary, and the sacrificer is not really losing anything by the killing of the animal, I don't think it fits within the parameters of "sacrifice". I suppose this may have to do with the connotative association with "sacrifice" and "loss".

As Google definitions defines: "give up (something important or valued) for the sake of other considerations."

However, it would seem that etymologically-speaking, "sacrifice" doesn't always involve "loss", so denotatively I was wrong.

However, it would seem that "sacrifice" does etymologically involve an offering to an exterior (not-I) deity, typically to appease.

So, I still don't think "sacrifice" is the right word to use when it comes to theoretical LHP slaughter of animals. Within other non-LHP traditions, "sacrifice" is certainly the right word.

.

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#97163 - 03/04/15 01:16 PM Re: Religious Animal Sacrifice [Re: Megatron]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3125
 Originally Posted By: Megaderp
Wow, you really added a bit of depth to the analysis of this thread topic in your extremely insightful reply. Proving that you can't even comprehend the lateral scenario (i.e. the traditional occurrences) wherein the carcass is divided into portions. The interesting tangent involves the nature of the division.

Oh I know well enough what it means...and I'm honestly not even impressed. I prefer to live in this bland world without magic and wishfull thinking. The perspective you get on a variety of issues becomes... interesting.

If you want to live in a world of "specialness", by all means do so... just remember that your philosophical banter will have quite a lot in common with ICP's "Miracles".

Go on, make things holy and special. I'll be breaking it down to tiny edible bits you wouldn't dare to touch as the sanctity has been reduced towards a state of nothingness.
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#97164 - 03/04/15 02:26 PM Re: Religious Animal Sacrifice [Re: Dimitri]
Caladrius Offline
member


Registered: 07/25/09
Posts: 320
Loc: SoCal
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
 Originally Posted By: Megaderp
Bulldog


 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
Chihuahua


One thing I like about chihuahuas is that they bark a lot, and at things far more BIGGER than themselves... what's that line Snoop said in the old skool days: "Your bark was loud, but your bite wasn't vicious..."

I find it funny and ironic that you - Dimitri [the biggest derp in Derpville] - suggest that Megatron is a "Megaderp" LOL.

The image that comes to my mind here is a rodeo show, where you have a Clown tease the horse before the actual show... to keep the audience's attention warm.

Genuine elevation is when a person has been uplifted by his/her peers. Over the many years I have seen "Megatron" being uplifted in different ways by his peers: praise, kudos, respect, and otherwise.

On the other hand, over the years, I've seen nobody give a shit enough about you to lift you up or elevate you, beyond the ground level creature that you are: Pedestrian in nature and physis.

You are reduced to putting down others, in order to make it feel to yourself or to some imaginary audience whom you think cares, that you are bigger, "better," more elevated in status, than those you put down.

This behaviour is telling because it shows your inferiority and insecurities. Here's a related link: 6 Things Insecure People Do.

Your intelligence compared to others here is trite and superficial. Your social skills is underdeveloped. Your level of understanding: substandard. Your Capacity of Mind, compared to Magatron and most people here with White Name Tags: is grotesquely diminutive.

You have produced nothing of any value and substance during the 6-7 years that I have been familiar with you in cyberspace. You nut swing on ONA MSS, and on the Sect of the Horny Goat. You barely produce any independent thought of your own. What thoughts you do produce of your own independent process of thought - such as this quoted post of yours - is indicative.


Edited by Caladrius (03/04/15 02:28 PM)
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#97165 - 03/04/15 02:54 PM Re: Religious Animal Sacrifice [Re: Caladrius]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3125
Aww look, a little babydoll came out of her basement...
I do believe I said I'm not a crowd-pleaser. I'm fine with you having a crush on a variety of people. It's all good. I never really cared where your little ladyboner went to (be it AL, JK,..).

As far as social skills are concerned.. I believe the word you're looking for is "pragmatic".

 Originally Posted By: Caladerp
You nut swing on ONA MSS,

Look who's talking...
I can vaguely recall some lonely lesbian heart-struck club called WSA. Way too funny shit you pulled there. Talk about sacrificing an innocent lamb when shit hit the fan a few years ago and the joke couldn't be continued..
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#97166 - 03/04/15 03:06 PM Re: Religious Animal Sacrifice [Re: JamesSTL]
SIN3 Offline
stalker


Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 6737
Loc: Virginia
I was curious about the term used by Yoruban people and all I could find in the context of Santeria was 'Ebbo'. This term, as you've pointed out, isn't just sacrifice proper but also obedience to (fill in the blank).

 Quote:
Ebbo is the Yoruba word for sacrifice. Sacrifice is a major component in this religion and all of the major religions around the world. Without sacrifice, nothing is accomplished. We pray, we divine, we sacrifice. The proper sacrifice needed is always determined by the priest and divination.

In IFA we go for a reading, and a Babalawo (Father of Secrets) will consult IFA on our behalf. IFA will speak through the Ikin (palm nuts) or Opele (divining chain).
We are taught that sacrifice is only half of being obedient to the counsel of IFA; the second half is; doing or not doing, what we were told.
source

vs.

 Quote:
Tantra is a set of esoteric Indian traditions with roots in Hinduism and later Buddhism (which is a separate Dharma formed from Hinduism). Tantra is often divided by its practitioners into two different paths: dakshinachara and vamachara, translated as Right-Hand Path and Left-Hand Path respectively. Dakshinachara consists of traditional Hindu practices such as asceticism and meditation, while Vamachara also includes ritual practices that conflict with mainstream Hinduism, such as sexual rituals, consumption of alcohol and other intoxicants, animal sacrifice, and flesh-eating. The two paths are viewed by Tantrists as equally valid approaches to enlightenment. Vamachara, however, is considered to be the faster and more dangerous of the two paths, and is not suitable for all practitioners. This usage of the terms Left-Hand Path and Right-Hand Path is still current in modern Tantra
source

Besides, this topic was beat to death with a stick ( here) , as it pertains to practices that would have been in direct opposition of the social landscape at that time which gave rise to Dakshinacarians.

That said, I would think 'Sacrifice' would be appropriate where maybe Ebbo may not in a LHP context.


 Originally Posted By: JamesSTL
o, I still don't think "sacrifice" is the right word to use when it comes to theoretical LHP slaughter of animals. Within other non-LHP traditions, "sacrifice" is certainly the right word.


What word would you recommend?
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#97167 - 03/04/15 03:07 PM Re: Religious Animal Sacrifice [Re: JamesSTL]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1641
Loc: Orlando, FL
It is certainly not arbitrary. In Santeria/Lucumi/Palo/Voodoo/&c each saint or divine being has their own preferred offering. Obatala accepts doves, Eshu takes chickens, Oshun she-goats, &c. Divination through obi or other means is used to determine when and what sorts of sacrifices are appropriate.

Those performing the sacrifice are responsible for purchasing, raising, caring for and treating the animal respectfully, and then preparing, cleaning, (and cooking if applicable) once the rite has been done. It is a big investment on their part, and one of the reasons why initiations in African Traditional Religions cost so much and are such a big deal is because many animals must be obtained and handled. The effort and devotion exhibited in the first place is the entire foundation of any sort of votive spirituality.

Are there some priests who are sloppy and cause unnecessary cruelty? Yes, but this is not the norm in the tradition and humane treatment is always stressed by any experienced practitioner.

And naturally, blood offering is only one external gesture of sacrifice, and one reserved to those of a specific level of initiation and training. Thinking that sacrifice requires one to wade through an ocean of blood is rather unbalanced and overlooks the personal and experiential dimension of religion, which exists even in the ATRs.

Perhaps the Psalmist might be of some help here?

 Quote:
O Lord, thou wilt open my lips: and my mouth shall declare thy praise.

For if thou hadst desired sacrifice, I would indeed have given it: with burnt offerings thou wilt not be delighted.

A sacrifice to God is an afflicted spirit: a contrite and humbled heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

Deal favourably, O Lord, in thy good will with Sion; that the walls of Jerusalem may be built up.

Then shalt thou accept the sacrifice of justice, oblations and whole burnt offerings: then shall they lay calves upon thy altar.


Edited by The Zebu (03/04/15 03:28 PM)
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«Recibe, ˇoh Lucifer! la sangre de esta víctima que sacrifico en tu honor.»

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#97168 - 03/04/15 03:11 PM Re: Religious Animal Sacrifice [Re: Dimitri]
Caladrius Offline
member


Registered: 07/25/09
Posts: 320
Loc: SoCal
 Originally Posted By: Caladerp
You nut swing on ONA MSS,
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri

Look who's talking...



Exactly. That's how it happens. You have a handful of people such as A.L., Beesty, Hagur, R. Parker, R.F., perhaps myself, do the talking. What we few say becomes o9a essays and so on. Then, people like you read such essays, and borrow the ideas.

The difference between you and me is that you nut swing, and I'm an original source. The difference is that many of my ideas, views, memes, live in your head, and none of your's live in mine.



Edited by Caladrius (03/04/15 03:21 PM)
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#97169 - 03/04/15 03:25 PM Re: Religious Animal Sacrifice [Re: SIN3]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1641
Loc: Orlando, FL
 Quote:
Besides, this topic was beat to death with a stick ( here) , as it pertains to practices that would have been in direct opposition of the social landscape at that time which gave rise to Dakshinacarians.


Indeed, social context determines whether a particular action is taboo, and thus a potential vehicle for Left-Handed initiation.

It is interesting to note, however, that Eshu is considered the ruler of the Ajogun (Powers of the Left), and in his role as Divine Trickster goes about causing chaos and dealing out the hard knocks for the sake of enlightening others, much in the way that Shiva or Bacchus might. I have also read (I cannot now recall where) that there were also cults to Eshu that practiced ritual homosexuality, which is considered dissolute in traditional Yoruba culture... I have not seen any further evidence that there was/is a close parallel to the Left Hand Path in African spirituality but given that some basic elements are there I would not be surprised were this discovered to be the case.


Edited by The Zebu (03/04/15 03:27 PM)
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#97170 - 03/04/15 03:32 PM Re: Religious Animal Sacrifice [Re: SIN3]
JamesSTL Offline
member


Registered: 11/29/13
Posts: 312
Loc: St. Louis
Sin:

I think "ritualized killing" or "ritualized slaughter" is a better fit from a LHP point-of-view.

A theoretical psychodrama enactment: Use an animal as the effigy of an enemy, slay the animal and devour the animal, symbolically representing the killing and devouring of said enemy.

. . .

Zebu: Your traditional descriptions were not was I was referring to. I was speaking about an arbitrary "sacrificial act" that involves no investment and/or loss.

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#97173 - 03/04/15 05:22 PM Re: Religious Animal Sacrifice [Re: JamesSTL]
SIN3 Offline
stalker


Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 6737
Loc: Virginia
Something to consider. I'll take it under advisement and see where I can implant it into future discussions.

The Santera is putting me in contact with some Palo folks, so I'll make it a point to bring it up. I have a special interest in Palo-Mayombe as it pertains to specific ritual killings involving beheading human victims and maintaining a head collection on one's altar. There's been a few cases in the last decade or so, some were prosecuted by local officials, while others where left to their devices.

 Quote:
I was speaking about an arbitrary "sacrificial act" that involves no investment and/or loss.


Do you mean a person just doing this as matter of fact, part of a specific tradition (self-created or no) where the person is just going through the motions but doesn't necessarily put in or get anything out of it except maybe dinner?

I haven't encountered this, not even with the Neopagans I know that practice ritual sacrifice (Asatru folks come to mind right off the bat).

It seems they make a big to-do about it like this animal needs to be regarded as something very important, serving an important role within their practices. Even that's an investment. I mean, how seriously could you look at a chicken like it was the holiest of holies?

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#97174 - 03/04/15 05:29 PM Re: Religious Animal Sacrifice [Re: Dimitri]
Czereda Offline
senior member


Registered: 03/14/11
Posts: 1793
Loc: Poland
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
I prefer to live in this bland world without magic and wishfull thinking.


Actually, religion, magic and wishful thinking can have an enormous impact on business. I remember the hot debate in my country about kosher meat and the ritual slaughter of animals. When the ritual slaughter of animals was prohibited, the slaughterhouses that occupied themselves with it and also companies that imported the kosher meat to Israel started having enormous financial problems. And that, in turn, affected the whole import in a negative way. Finally, the ban was declared unconstitutional to the consternation of animal rights activists, but to the joy of Jews and these businesses that catered to their needs.

Of course, in the case of the ritual killing of animals for kosher meat, it's not a sacrifice per se, but nevertheless, it's a sacred ritualized activity connected to specific religion and culture. Also, in this case, the meat is eaten.

Personally, I don't have issues with animal sacrifice, whether the meat is eaten or not. It has always accompanied the human civilization so it doesn't really shock or disgusts me. Hell, even Yahweh "demanded" animal sacrifice.

 Originally Posted By: Caladrius
Genuine elevation is when a person has been uplifted by his/her peers.


Bullshit, unless you just wanted to crack a joke. You are what you are, irrespective of the number of kudos you get from your peers.
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#97175 - 03/04/15 05:33 PM Re: Religious Animal Sacrifice [Re: JamesSTL]
The Archangel Offline
stranger


Registered: 02/22/15
Posts: 12
Loc: Florida
 Quote:
I think "ritualized killing" or "ritualized slaughter" is a better fit from a LHP point-of-view.


I try to remind myself that the LHP is only desirable because it is a good fit for me, rather than succumbing to the illusion that I am desirable because I am a good fit for the LHP. In any case, I think some LHP practitioners (theistic ones perhaps) are fond of making personal sacrifices to express a certain brand of emotion that another may feel no need to express. I think that sacrifice in GBM may train a sympathetic persona for use in LBM right out of LaVey's Satanic Bible. Does this fly in the face of his views against self-sacrifice? It doesn't matter.

I gather that you do not perceive any gain in practicing self-sacrifice and so I won't dwell on that here. In closing, I'm sure you can read the Satanic Witch and understand the power of sympathy for yourself.
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#97177 - 03/04/15 05:58 PM Re: Religious Animal Sacrifice [Re: Czereda]
Caladrius Offline
member


Registered: 07/25/09
Posts: 320
Loc: SoCal
 Originally Posted By: Czereda


 Originally Posted By: Caladrius
Genuine elevation is when a person has been uplifted by his/her peers.


Bullshit, unless you just wanted to crack a joke. You are what you are, irrespective of the number of kudos you get from your peers.


My statement is best understood in context.

When you have gained a practical understanding and experience of such things as as: word of mouth advertisement, marketing and advertising; what power, influence are; what support has to do with anything; politics; how public opinion can make or break a business or politician; the dynamics of social order; and so on: you will understand my statement better and in the proper context, and the importance of social/people skills.
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#97178 - 03/04/15 06:35 PM Re: Religious Animal Sacrifice [Re: Caladrius]
Czereda Offline
senior member


Registered: 03/14/11
Posts: 1793
Loc: Poland
 Quote:
My statement is best understood in context.


Of course, you wrote this:

Genuine elevation is when a person has been uplifted by his/her peers. Over the many years I have seen "Megatron" being uplifted in different ways by his peers: praise, kudos, respect, and otherwise.

On the other hand, over the years, I've seen nobody give a shit enough about you to lift you up or elevate you, beyond the ground level creature that you are: Pedestrian in nature and physis.


The amount of praise or criticism will not change your nature. It will not change who you are. Dimitri is not "pedestrian" in nature, whatever the hell that means, because he can stand his ground in a discussion and deal with rejection and criticism. That doesn't mean he doesn't talk out of his *** from time to time, but we all have our better and worse days.

 Quote:
When you have gained a practical understanding and experience of such things as as: word of mouth advertisement, marketing and advertising; what power, influence are; what support has to do with anything; politics; how public opinion can make or break a business or politician; the dynamics of social order; and so on: you will understand my statement better and in the proper context, and the importance of social/people skills.


It's all nice and dandy, but this is just a forum. JK and Dimitri have no influence outside the Satanic forums. If Xear one day gets bored and closes down this forum and other Satanic forums disappear, nobody will remember Dimitri, JK, Czereda, Dan, AK, FS and many many other users here and elsewhere and their ramblings. Except perhaps the very few people, like Michael Aquino and you, though your writings are just a drop in the vast O9A ocean.

So get real. No need to suck up to others, because there is nothing to gain or lose.
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#97181 - 03/04/15 08:32 PM Re: Religious Animal Sacrifice [Re: JamesSTL]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1641
Loc: Orlando, FL
 Quote:

Zebu: Your traditional descriptions were not was I was referring to. I was speaking about an arbitrary "sacrificial act" that involves no investment and/or loss.


Ah, in that case I agree with you on that point.

 Quote:
A theoretical psychodrama enactment: Use an animal as the effigy of an enemy, slay the animal and devour the animal, symbolically representing the killing and devouring of said enemy.


Come to think of it there are actual spells in grimoires associated with Saint Cyprian wherein an animal such as a toad is used as a living poppet, stabbing it and then saying something such as "It is not the limbs of this toad that I pierce, but the limbs of (Name), in the name of the three devils Lucifer, Satanas, Barabbas, &c...". Given the theory of destructive magic in TSB it would certainly be "black magic" in principle by LaVeyan criteria (minus the helpless animal torture)...

However, it would not neccesarily be "LHP" in the self-transgressive sense, unless you are doing it deliberately to overcome your own revulsion to killing animals. Throwing curses and death magic is not Sinister by itself, which is why practical operative magic--"lesser", "lower", "external" magic--is usually viewed as being of secondary significance to workings directly aimed at self-actualization through self-overcoming.

But of course we are left with the awkward question of how desensitizing yourself to the sight of toad guts makes you any better of a Satanist. It is better to aim such methods at the subtler and more deeply-rooted aspects of your personality.


Edited by The Zebu (03/04/15 08:35 PM)
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