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#97106 - 03/02/15 12:26 PM Religious Animal Sacrifice
SIN3 Offline
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Where do you stand on the issue today? Did you hold a different opinion in the past?

Plenty of cultures practice it and people cry out that it's cruelty and an abuse of innocent animals. Some even get quite indignant about it even if they aren't Vegans (belting off "LaVey says we don't harm children and animals!")

See: Recent News Articles

Nepal (as an example) Image Gallery and article has Animal Rights Activists in an uproar.

What say you?

How do you discern Sacrifice?

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#97109 - 03/02/15 01:24 PM Re: Religious Animal Sacrifice [Re: SIN3]
antikarmatomic Offline
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 Originally Posted By: SIN3
Where do you stand on the issue today?


It never really phased me. 'Still doesn't.

Sure, as a pre-adolescent I've killed more than a few innocuous animals just for the hell of it.

*and some not-so-innocuous. Snapping turtles, for example, those are some mean fuckers, and they sure do take a beating - as-in they still manage to hiss at you when you're elbow deep up their assholes clutching at their innards

20-20 hindsight it was more or less just me being a boy. I'm neither proud of it nor ashamed of it.

Was it sacrifice? No, of course not. Those animals would've had to have meant something to me in the first place - a goat I used to cut the grass, a cow I used for milk, or a bull I used to till my fields would be different.

What I mean by that is, in my mind, in order for it to be a sacrifice it should be useful to you in the first place. Otherwise it's just killing an animal - be it out of curiosity, malice, tradition, or some strange type of thinking that doing so gives you powers or good-luck or something.

Since I'm no longer that curious, don't have as much malice as I used, have very few traditions to speak of, and don't subscribe to the notion that doing so would empower me it's basically a "meh".

As for the image gallery and animal rights - some days you're the statue, some days you're the pidgin.



Edited by antikarmatomic (03/02/15 01:57 PM)
Edit Reason: decided to be a smidge more graphic. Don't tell my mom.
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#97112 - 03/02/15 02:18 PM Re: Religious Animal Sacrifice [Re: SIN3]
The Zebu Offline
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I feel content with defining a "sacrifice" as a ritual offering (doing or giving of something) to a spiritual entity in accordance with their desires (known through either tradition or divination) and in consideration of the means of the votary. This can be either have religious and devotional overtones, done as an act of love, respect, and gratitude, and/or be seen as appeasing a vengeful master (or demanding servant). Very often these sacrifices involve animals, since rearing livestock and slaughtering them for food has been a prominent aspect of peoples' lives for millennia.

Is it right or wrong? Who cares? Not necessarily rhetorical here... It is useful to some worldviews, such as classical Hellenic/Roman/Egyptian spirituality and Afro-Hispanic religions, whose rites sometimes require the operator to be elbow-deep in gore. It is not useful to others, such as orthodox Christians (who developed the Mass as a proxy blood sacrifice) and those who follow Vaisnava-dharma, to say nothing of those who are not spiritual at all.

I used to not see the point in animal sacrifice (or sacrifice at all), but over the years I've gotten much deeper into occult headspace and have settled in to a form of black magical praxis of which sacrifice does play a strong role. My own current interpretation is that offering your own blood is much more important (as several grimoires that focus on pact-making imply), and sacrificing animals per se is not an absolute necessity, which is featured mostly for a utilitarian purpose such as to obtain virgin parchment or some sympathetic substance or body part.

Now of course there are some other obscure odds and ends of the mythos that would certainly seem cruel and pointless (involving mutilating/dismembering/skinning live toads, cats, and bats) and would likely make even me uneasy if I tried it myself. But hand-wringing over whether its mere presence in the tradition accords with contemporary legal or 'moral' mores isn't really in my sphere of interest. If anything it filters out the wimps who get too hung up on that sort of thing. Satanism-- and Witchcraft-- is inherently "Other", and that sort of morbid grotesqueness is part and parcel with the essence.

Sometimes that means admitting that you might be reasonably confused with the Glue-Sniffing Cat-Killing Supervillians of society. It's an occupational hazard, and I knew the risks when I signed up.


Edited by The Zebu (03/02/15 02:35 PM)
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#97116 - 03/03/15 01:59 AM Re: Religious Animal Sacrifice [Re: SIN3]
Caladrius Offline
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In pre-Jain & Pre-Buddhism times, there existed a concept and practice - based on the ancient Vedas - once called "Himsa," which roughly meant "~sacrificial offering; to inflict harm." As in the term "sacrificial himsa."

Back in those very ancient days; before even most of the Upanishads were written; the pre-vedanta cultus of the ancient Vedas actually resembled the cultus of ancient Judea, where animals were ritually blood-sacrificed [yajna] to the old Vedic gods.

It was during the period in history when Jainism was born that the ancient vedic practice of Himsa came under fire. When the Jains became influential they rejected the notion of Himsa, believing it to be pointless and a cause of bad karma. They called their opposing doctrine Ahimsa. The Jains were the original people who came up with the idea of "Ahimsa," meaning approximately "no-infliction of harm & also no-sacrifice."

Buddhism historically grew out of Jainism, and so, the early Buddhists adopted the doctrine of Ahimsa. Back then "ahimsa" meant something quite different then what it means today.

Ahimsa back then [~500BC], to the new weltanschauung of Buddhism meant that: (a) Vedic Gods don't exist, (b) sacrificing animals to non-existent gods is useless, & (c) because A & B, therefore killing animals simply causes suffering in the animal for no reason.

At first the Vedic cultus rejected Jainism & Buddhism's idea of Ahimsa. But eventually, these two schools of thought became increasingly influential on the religious market at the time. Meaning that much of the populous became influenced by Jainism and Buddhism's concept of Ahimsa. Plus, since most people were poor, they could not afford an animal to kill to gods; so the doctrine of Ahimsa became increasingly attractive to the common ancient Indian.

Incredibly [or perhaps due to a need to adapt to survive], the Vedic Tradition would eventually adopt the concept of Ahimsa to the point where Ahimsa became a doctrine of central importance. The Vedic Traditions - now with the latter Upanishads and Vedanta - would expand the definition of Ahimsa to not only mean "no-sacrifice" but also to mean "no-violence." And so, ever since then "Hindus" don't sacrifice animals to Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva, and so on... but at one time, it was actually practiced.

When the Buddha was around the scene, he took the Pali dialectal vernacular word "Yan~n~a" - which in Sanskrit is Yajna [sacrificial ritual] - and he redefined it to mean "Alms Giving" to monks, nuns, & the poor.

But anyways. Personally I'm a Traditionalist. And so, I see nothing "wrong" with ritual sacrifice of animals, if and when it is done within the context of traditional human culture and ways of life. I personally believe that each human culture/way is "numinous" in its uniqueness, as a memeplex, and that such cultures and ways of life have a right to maintain and practice their Traditions. Regardless of the weak-stomached sentiments of people who are "outsiders" to their Traditions.

At the same time, I have a weak-stomach and a very open solar plexus, so I find it emotionally horrendous to watch any animal killed, abused, tortured, etc. I would consider myself to be one of the "weak-stomach" sentimental "outsider" to traditions that practice animal sacrifice.




Edited by Caladrius (03/03/15 02:25 AM)

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#97120 - 03/03/15 09:18 AM Re: Religious Animal Sacrifice [Re: Caladrius]
Megatron Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Caladrius
Buddhism historically grew out of Jainism, and so, the early Buddhists adopted the doctrine of Ahimsa. Back then "ahimsa" meant something quite different then what it means today.


Wow. I never thought I would ever encounter such a thing. It'd be like a dream come true: Mahavira vs. Gautama. For the Advaita Championship of the Multiverse.

As you know, Buddha-mind is irrespective of time. Just as it is of all possible dimensionality. Your immediate lineage progresses through what might be called the Hinayana branch-field. Meaning you are true LHP by lineage.

One of the things that trips me out in the recent literature on Dzogchen is the issue of Buddhist/Bon primacy. As everyone knows, that baby was split/settled a long time ago.
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#97124 - 03/03/15 10:29 AM Re: Religious Animal Sacrifice [Re: Caladrius]
SIN3 Offline
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Some cursory research revealed:

 Quote:
In Jaina scriptures a distinction has been made between `Sthula Himsa' and `Sukshma Himsa'. The `Sthula Himsa' entails the destruction of the higher forms of life from dvindriyas, i.e., two-sensed beings upwards and it is forbidden to all Jainas. On the other hand, the `Sukshma Himsa' means taking of life in any form including even the killing of ekendriyas, i.e., one sensed beings and it is obligatory for the Jaina ascetics to abstain from this kind of Himsa. The lay Jaina is also enjoined to avoid as far as possible the killing of ekendriyas, i.e., one-sensed beings and the useless destruction of Sthavara-Jivas, i.e., immobile souls.

It has been stated that Himsa does not depend on acts alone: the vrata or vow will be broken merely by the absence of compassion shown when a man allows himself to be carried away by anger. Hence a distinction has been made between Dravya Himsa, i.e., the actual hurt or injury and Bhava Himsa, i.e., the intention to hurt or injury to the Prana meaning vitality.


The concept of Himsa has been discussed in detail in the Jaina scriptures both from the `Vyavahara Naya', i.e., the practical point of view and from the `Nischaya Naya', i.e., the real point of view.

From the practical point of view the `Tattvartha-sutra' the classic Jaina text, has defined Himsa as follows, that is, Himsa or injury is the hurting of the vitalities by passional vibrations. It means that Himsa or injury is to hurt the Pranas, i.e., the vitalities, through Pramattayoga, i.e., vibration due to the passions which agitate mind, body or speech.

On the same lines, another classic Jaina Text, viz., `Purushartha siddhi-upaya' asserts that passion is the moving cause which leads to Himsa and gives the meaning of Himsa in following terms : that is, any injury whatsoever to the material or conscious vitalities caused through passionate activity of mind, body or speech is assuredly (definitely) Himsa.


Causally, Bad Karma may be the result but it seems to me that it would still have a purpose, and not be rendered useless if the aim is to experience the forbidden Himsa.

The intent appears to be to maintain civility between creatures and self-discipline to keep your beast chained. It assumes that all acts of 'violence' stem from Anger, this isn't the case. Even small children that have harmed living things often do it out of curiosity, examining a thing as it dies and being responsible for its death.

If the real injury is internal, then suffice to say if you're fine with killing things no 'Bad Karma' can be the result. I'd say there's millions of people that are just dandy with killing sentient beings every day. The absolute apathy towards insects for example. Pest-control encompasses a variety of species (common rodents among them).

I was looking for something that could tell me if after these offerings were made to the gods if the meat was just left to rot. I know Hindus do this (which also explains the state of Dehli today). Did they eat it? Were they Vegans? Are modern Buddhists Vegans today?


 Quote:
I have a weak-stomach and a very open solar plexus, so I find it emotionally horrendous to watch any animal killed, abused, tortured, etc. I would consider myself to be one of the "weak-stomach" sentimental "outsider" to traditions that practice animal sacrifice.


Are you a Vegan? I think plenty of people would be hard-pressed to watch animal slaughter for their food but it doesn't stop them from eating meat and enjoying animal byproducts. Even if in ideal they are sentimental about animals being killed, so long as they don't see it, they are usually okay with it.

 Quote:
And so, I see nothing "wrong" with ritual sacrifice of animals, if and when it is done within the context of traditional human culture and ways of life.


Are you referring to humane killing and modern lifestyles that include the slaughter of animals for creature comforts?
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#97126 - 03/03/15 11:30 AM Re: Religious Animal Sacrifice [Re: Megatron]
Caladrius Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Megatron
 Originally Posted By: Caladrius
Buddhism historically grew out of Jainism, and so, the early Buddhists adopted the doctrine of Ahimsa. Back then "ahimsa" meant something quite different then what it means today.


Wow. I never thought I would ever encounter such a thing. It'd be like a dream come true: Mahavira vs. Gautama. For the Advaita Championship of the Multiverse.



Based on my unprofessional and fallible limited knowledge, I believe the Buddha never existed as an actual person.

Interestingly, some of the earliest statues of the Buddha were Greek and loosely based on Apollo. During that period the Buddha looked more like a person from the Warrior Caste. Later on, the Buddha statues took on the look of a mixture of Mahavira and Shiva as buddha [an epithet of Shiva]. Some of the earliest Buddhist monks were also Greek. A related link.

 Originally Posted By: SIN3
Are you a Vegan? I think plenty of people would be hard-pressed to watch animal slaughter for their food but it doesn't stop them from eating meat and enjoying animal byproducts. Even if in ideal they are sentimental about animals being killed, so long as they don't see it, they are usually okay with it.


No, I'm not vegan by any means. I actually dislike vegans. I refuse to be friends with them. I enjoy meat. I just personally - as you pointed out - don't find it entertaining to sit in a slaughterhouse to watch animals being killed. As Howard Bloom said: "...Kill of be killed." As a side note: the Buddha was said to have died from eating poisoned meat.

 Originally Posted By: SIN3
Are you referring to humane killing and modern lifestyles that include the slaughter of animals for creature comforts?


No. I was referring to any and all Traditional human cultures and ways of life [religious] that still exists today which incorporates or involves the slaughter of animals as sacrificial offerings.

Hopefully, any killing of an animal is "humane;" as opposed to being done for the sadistic joy of abuse and torture. In my culture, we have this very ancient indigenous animism in the background of our culture. And so, we believe that animals - as well as plants - have spirits/souls/vin~n~an - like humans do. So when we kill an animal during hunting or for whatever reason, we whisper a quick prayer over the animal saying: "Please forgive me for killing you, but I need your flesh to feed myself and family. May you be reborn human." [If you ask me, I'd rather be anything but a human.]

As far as killing animals in today's time and era for creature comfort: I see nothing wrong with this either. My personal sentiments about this subject is essentially sadism, meaning here the harming of an animal with the intent of deriving sadistic pleasure from its suffering, abuse, and torture.


Edited by Caladrius (03/03/15 11:34 AM)

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#97127 - 03/03/15 11:38 AM Re: Religious Animal Sacrifice [Re: Caladrius]
SIN3 Offline
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 Quote:
Hopefully, any killing of an animal is "humane;" as opposed to being done for the sadistic joy of abuse and torture.


Speaking of cultural trends, the Ethical Meat Farm is the new thing. Mostly because of all the press that the Meat Packing industry receives in its methods of both care and slaughtering of animals.

What is 'humane' is getting more and more ambiguous so it is necessary to provide clarification to consumers that want to eat Ethical Meat (which isn't limited to the U.S. it seems).

I included some photos in the slide-show that plays during the podcast I did with your buddy Tom here and follow up with a friend of mine here.

When people grapple with what is ethical and humane it appears to be the least amount of suffering the animal endures but at least they acknowledge that the animal suffers so they can eat.

When you add Satanist + Animal Sacrifice, the image people imagine is that Satan requires the animal to suffer but they don't seem to know why.
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#97137 - 03/03/15 07:58 PM Re: Religious Animal Sacrifice [Re: SIN3]
CanisMachina42 Offline
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 Quote:
What say you?

How do you discern Sacrifice?


A semantics argument tainted by western values. One thing that holds is sacrifice is more so to the benefit of the living, and less to appease 'the gods'.

Sacrifice conjures images of dismemberment upon an altar and is clouded by preconception of dark purposes. Not to say that doesn't happen. In hoodoo many different animals are used for various reasons, from hexes to good luck satchels. Chickens and bats for their blood, black cats being boiled alive for that 'magic bone' and good luck. It's cultural, and the parts of the animal are rarely wasted. Larger animals are 'sacrificed' and then fed to the entire community in large ceremonies.

The indigenous cultures of central and south America (prior to Catholicism) regularly practiced human and animal sacrifice for every reason one could imagine.

This is what people think when the hear sacrifice - bloody rituals for a reason that rubs them the wrong way. Yet, the honor of being chosen is often left out. Much of it is culture shock - the base of indignation. May the victor dictate taboo. The conquistadors annihilated the savages and demonized their culture. Sometimes the old ways can't be done away with entirely. Which gives us Hoodoo, Conjure and Santeria today.
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#97145 - 03/04/15 02:26 AM Re: Religious Animal Sacrifice [Re: SIN3]
Dimitri Offline
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Waste of perfectly good meat.
Not a fan of animal sacrifice for that reason alone.

Unless the animal sacrifice is being followed by a feast where it is cooked up and prepared for all participants to enjoy.
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#97148 - 03/04/15 08:24 AM Re: Religious Animal Sacrifice [Re: Dimitri]
Megatron Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
Waste of perfectly good meat.
Not a fan of animal sacrifice for that reason alone.

Unless the animal sacrifice is being followed by a feast where it is cooked up and prepared for all participants to enjoy.


Wow, you really added a bit of depth to the analysis of this thread topic in your extremely insightful reply. Proving that you can't even comprehend the lateral scenario (i.e. the traditional occurrences) wherein the carcass is divided into portions. The interesting tangent involves the nature of the division.

To the topic proper, the word "sacrifice" literally means "to make holy/consecrated". To all pre-modern cultures*, sacrifice was an integral part of both individual and also communal existence. Such a feature is drawn from diurnal rhythm primarily, and the first derivatives secondarily (e.g. moon phasing).

A world devoid of sacrifice would be a world where nothing was sacred. A bland, droll world. It isn't a choice of whether or not we sacrifice things, but rather a question of just what it is we choose to make holy.

*one could also make a case for the modern as well . . .


Edited by Megatron (03/04/15 08:36 AM)
Edit Reason: Antikarmatomic thinks he has the upper hand. It's a swing game, bro. A swing game.
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#97150 - 03/04/15 08:50 AM Re: Religious Animal Sacrifice [Re: Caladrius]
Megatron Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Caladrius
Based on my unprofessional and fallible limited knowledge, I believe the Buddha never existed as an actual person.


You are absolutely correct in this statement. And that particular truth is irrespective of the historicity of Gautama. Buddhism, as you well know, is not the veneration of saints. It only appears that way to outsiders on purpose. And especially to the "outermost rim" if you will.

The teaching proper (in every school, and at all levels) concerns only the nature of mind/fullness. And to answer the next question, no.
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#97154 - 03/04/15 10:36 AM Re: Religious Animal Sacrifice [Re: CanisMachina42]
SIN3 Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Dogmachine
Yet, the honor of being chosen is often left out. Much of it is culture shock - the base of indignation.


I attended an Introduction to Lucumi yesterday and was given ample opportunity to ask questions about how these animals are chosen, who decides and when the animal is eaten and when its not.

In the Yoruba tradition, the animal is left to nature during purification/cleansing ceremonies. The idea is that this animal absorbs what you're trying to get rid of, so you wouldn't want to eat it because it defeats the purpose. The Santera/Santero performs a reading to determine when and if this ceremony is necessary. Typically a reading of shells or coconut quarters; this form of Divination usually produces a message that will be interpreted in the context of the person's Destiny.

When the ritual is performed, the Santero/Santera is connected to the animal, in that they hold it close, they feel its life and must look it in the eyes upon taking it. They try their best to give it a quick death with the least amount of suffering. This is how they regard a humane killing.

These ceremonies don't always require an animal to purify. It can be done with seeds, fruit, herbs and other things. The Santera/Santero decides when it's necessary;intuitive messages received from their respective Orishas.

All other ceremonies that require an animal sacrifice, the animal is eaten. During the ceremony it is elevated as a symbol of nature's ability to heal and provide nourishment.

 Originally Posted By: Megatron
To the topic proper, the word "sacrifice" literally means "to make holy/consecrated". To all pre-modern cultures*, sacrifice was an integral part of both individual and also communal existence.


Many people interpret sacrifice as something you give up/with-stain from. So therein lies the confusion it seems. If you eat it, people question whether it qualifies as a sacrifice.

Since Santeria is basically diaspora & multiculturalism, I had asked if sacrifice here in the States would be regarded the same by the Yoruba. Essentially, the Yoruba try to balance the positive/negatives of preservation and taking of life. They try to please the powers they commune with. The people see signs in all things. So say they killed an animal and something went wrong, or some anomaly occurred during a ritual, the results might be that someone in their village falls ill and this is confirmation bias that the powers have been displeased. So they take steps to make it right. Sort of like the way you treat your garden. If you neglect it, or over do it - the end result will demonstrate how Nature answers you. So its fundamentally the same, which is why the people in the States find it of utmost importance to follow traditions and trace their lineage back to its point of origin.

There's a lot of Spiritism to the practice but each adherent has their own interpretation of what 'Spirits' actually are. This particular Santera regards them as Natural vs. Supernatural. If your garden only produced a few tomatoes vs. a good hearty harvest, then the Spirits of nature are displeased with you but show signs that things could be improved upon (like water me, fertilize me, take care of me and I'll take care of you).

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#97158 - 03/04/15 11:24 AM Re: Religious Animal Sacrifice [Re: antikarmatomic]
JamesSTL Offline
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 Originally Posted By: antikarmatomic
...in order for it to be a sacrifice it should be useful to you in the first place. Otherwise it's just killing an animal - be it out of curiosity, malice, tradition, or some strange type of thinking that doing so gives you powers or good-luck or something.


I agree with AK. There is nothing "sacrificial" about the arbitrary ritualized slaughter of animals.

As Dimi also touched on, I can see use in the ritual slaughter of an animal followed by a feast. For one thing, it would allow the participants to actively engage in the aspects of eating meat that are conveniently "hidden" from public view. But in this capacity, I think "slaughter" is the right word to use, not "sacrifice".

Personally, my view of Satan is not a deity that needs to be appeased -- more like a "force" which can be abstracted into an archetype. The whole "sacrifice" deal seems historically very "not LHP", as it involves submission to exterior (not-I) factors/deities/whatever.

EDIT: Horrific image of blood sacrifice to SaTaN: LOOK IF YOU DARE!

.


Edited by JamesSTL (03/04/15 11:30 AM)

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#97160 - 03/04/15 12:03 PM Re: Religious Animal Sacrifice [Re: JamesSTL]
SIN3 Offline
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 Quote:
There is nothing "sacrificial" about the arbitrary ritualized slaughter of animals.


I don't know that its arbitrary. These animals aren't being killed at whim, they serve a very specific purpose whether as symbol or carrier.

In the Nepalese example provided the Gadhimai Festival is to end evil and bring prosperity to the region. After the festival the meat & bones are sold in Nepal and Delhi markets.

In the Santerian example, the purpose in these rituals is to have a direct effect on the participants (whether for Healing or Cleansing) and more often than not the animal is prepared for a feast afterwards.

The way these folks treat the animals (if that's one's main concern) is sometimes more ethical than the meat-packing industry's care.

If a person is making "sacrifice" for Satan, the end result is much like that of the Santerians. To effect the person performing sacrifice.

 Quote:
The whole "sacrifice" deal seems historically very "not LHP"


Think Psychodrama with a little more flair and utilitarian purpose. I think it can made to fit in proper context.


Especially if one were an Animal Lover, wanted to eat 'Ethical Meat', or even just improve the quality of life/body by eating something more ceremoniously.

I've yet to speak to any Satanists that claims that Satan needs to be appeased by an animal's suffering.

Many 'Theists' don't see Satan as a being that exists outside of nature. More like the shadows when the light is bent in their favor.
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#97162 - 03/04/15 01:05 PM Re: Religious Animal Sacrifice [Re: SIN3]
JamesSTL Offline
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 Originally Posted By: SIN3
I don't know that its arbitrary. These animals aren't being killed at whim, they serve a very specific purpose whether as symbol or carrier.


I was saying that if the selection were arbitrary, and the sacrificer is not really losing anything by the killing of the animal, I don't think it fits within the parameters of "sacrifice". I suppose this may have to do with the connotative association with "sacrifice" and "loss".

As Google definitions defines: "give up (something important or valued) for the sake of other considerations."

However, it would seem that etymologically-speaking, "sacrifice" doesn't always involve "loss", so denotatively I was wrong.

However, it would seem that "sacrifice" does etymologically involve an offering to an exterior (not-I) deity, typically to appease.

So, I still don't think "sacrifice" is the right word to use when it comes to theoretical LHP slaughter of animals. Within other non-LHP traditions, "sacrifice" is certainly the right word.

.

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#97163 - 03/04/15 01:16 PM Re: Religious Animal Sacrifice [Re: Megatron]
Dimitri Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Megaderp
Wow, you really added a bit of depth to the analysis of this thread topic in your extremely insightful reply. Proving that you can't even comprehend the lateral scenario (i.e. the traditional occurrences) wherein the carcass is divided into portions. The interesting tangent involves the nature of the division.

Oh I know well enough what it means...and I'm honestly not even impressed. I prefer to live in this bland world without magic and wishfull thinking. The perspective you get on a variety of issues becomes... interesting.

If you want to live in a world of "specialness", by all means do so... just remember that your philosophical banter will have quite a lot in common with ICP's "Miracles".

Go on, make things holy and special. I'll be breaking it down to tiny edible bits you wouldn't dare to touch as the sanctity has been reduced towards a state of nothingness.
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#97164 - 03/04/15 02:26 PM Re: Religious Animal Sacrifice [Re: Dimitri]
Caladrius Offline
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Registered: 07/25/09
Posts: 339
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 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
 Originally Posted By: Megaderp
Bulldog


 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
Chihuahua


One thing I like about chihuahuas is that they bark a lot, and at things far more BIGGER than themselves... what's that line Snoop said in the old skool days: "Your bark was loud, but your bite wasn't vicious..."

I find it funny and ironic that you - Dimitri [the biggest derp in Derpville] - suggest that Megatron is a "Megaderp" LOL.

The image that comes to my mind here is a rodeo show, where you have a Clown tease the horse before the actual show... to keep the audience's attention warm.

Genuine elevation is when a person has been uplifted by his/her peers. Over the many years I have seen "Megatron" being uplifted in different ways by his peers: praise, kudos, respect, and otherwise.

On the other hand, over the years, I've seen nobody give a shit enough about you to lift you up or elevate you, beyond the ground level creature that you are: Pedestrian in nature and physis.

You are reduced to putting down others, in order to make it feel to yourself or to some imaginary audience whom you think cares, that you are bigger, "better," more elevated in status, than those you put down.

This behaviour is telling because it shows your inferiority and insecurities. Here's a related link: 6 Things Insecure People Do.

Your intelligence compared to others here is trite and superficial. Your social skills is underdeveloped. Your level of understanding: substandard. Your Capacity of Mind, compared to Magatron and most people here with White Name Tags: is grotesquely diminutive.

You have produced nothing of any value and substance during the 6-7 years that I have been familiar with you in cyberspace. You nut swing on ONA MSS, and on the Sect of the Horny Goat. You barely produce any independent thought of your own. What thoughts you do produce of your own independent process of thought - such as this quoted post of yours - is indicative.


Edited by Caladrius (03/04/15 02:28 PM)

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#97165 - 03/04/15 02:54 PM Re: Religious Animal Sacrifice [Re: Caladrius]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3385
Aww look, a little babydoll came out of her basement...
I do believe I said I'm not a crowd-pleaser. I'm fine with you having a crush on a variety of people. It's all good. I never really cared where your little ladyboner went to (be it AL, JK,..).

As far as social skills are concerned.. I believe the word you're looking for is "pragmatic".

 Originally Posted By: Caladerp
You nut swing on ONA MSS,

Look who's talking...
I can vaguely recall some lonely lesbian heart-struck club called WSA. Way too funny shit you pulled there. Talk about sacrificing an innocent lamb when shit hit the fan a few years ago and the joke couldn't be continued..
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#97166 - 03/04/15 03:06 PM Re: Religious Animal Sacrifice [Re: JamesSTL]
SIN3 Offline
stalker


Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 7190
Loc: Virginia
I was curious about the term used by Yoruban people and all I could find in the context of Santeria was 'Ebbo'. This term, as you've pointed out, isn't just sacrifice proper but also obedience to (fill in the blank).

 Quote:
Ebbo is the Yoruba word for sacrifice. Sacrifice is a major component in this religion and all of the major religions around the world. Without sacrifice, nothing is accomplished. We pray, we divine, we sacrifice. The proper sacrifice needed is always determined by the priest and divination.

In IFA we go for a reading, and a Babalawo (Father of Secrets) will consult IFA on our behalf. IFA will speak through the Ikin (palm nuts) or Opele (divining chain).
We are taught that sacrifice is only half of being obedient to the counsel of IFA; the second half is; doing or not doing, what we were told.
source

vs.

 Quote:
Tantra is a set of esoteric Indian traditions with roots in Hinduism and later Buddhism (which is a separate Dharma formed from Hinduism). Tantra is often divided by its practitioners into two different paths: dakshinachara and vamachara, translated as Right-Hand Path and Left-Hand Path respectively. Dakshinachara consists of traditional Hindu practices such as asceticism and meditation, while Vamachara also includes ritual practices that conflict with mainstream Hinduism, such as sexual rituals, consumption of alcohol and other intoxicants, animal sacrifice, and flesh-eating. The two paths are viewed by Tantrists as equally valid approaches to enlightenment. Vamachara, however, is considered to be the faster and more dangerous of the two paths, and is not suitable for all practitioners. This usage of the terms Left-Hand Path and Right-Hand Path is still current in modern Tantra
source

Besides, this topic was beat to death with a stick ( here) , as it pertains to practices that would have been in direct opposition of the social landscape at that time which gave rise to Dakshinacarians.

That said, I would think 'Sacrifice' would be appropriate where maybe Ebbo may not in a LHP context.


 Originally Posted By: JamesSTL
o, I still don't think "sacrifice" is the right word to use when it comes to theoretical LHP slaughter of animals. Within other non-LHP traditions, "sacrifice" is certainly the right word.


What word would you recommend?
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#97167 - 03/04/15 03:07 PM Re: Religious Animal Sacrifice [Re: JamesSTL]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1647
Loc: Orlando, FL
It is certainly not arbitrary. In Santeria/Lucumi/Palo/Voodoo/&c each saint or divine being has their own preferred offering. Obatala accepts doves, Eshu takes chickens, Oshun she-goats, &c. Divination through obi or other means is used to determine when and what sorts of sacrifices are appropriate.

Those performing the sacrifice are responsible for purchasing, raising, caring for and treating the animal respectfully, and then preparing, cleaning, (and cooking if applicable) once the rite has been done. It is a big investment on their part, and one of the reasons why initiations in African Traditional Religions cost so much and are such a big deal is because many animals must be obtained and handled. The effort and devotion exhibited in the first place is the entire foundation of any sort of votive spirituality.

Are there some priests who are sloppy and cause unnecessary cruelty? Yes, but this is not the norm in the tradition and humane treatment is always stressed by any experienced practitioner.

And naturally, blood offering is only one external gesture of sacrifice, and one reserved to those of a specific level of initiation and training. Thinking that sacrifice requires one to wade through an ocean of blood is rather unbalanced and overlooks the personal and experiential dimension of religion, which exists even in the ATRs.

Perhaps the Psalmist might be of some help here?

 Quote:
O Lord, thou wilt open my lips: and my mouth shall declare thy praise.

For if thou hadst desired sacrifice, I would indeed have given it: with burnt offerings thou wilt not be delighted.

A sacrifice to God is an afflicted spirit: a contrite and humbled heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

Deal favourably, O Lord, in thy good will with Sion; that the walls of Jerusalem may be built up.

Then shalt thou accept the sacrifice of justice, oblations and whole burnt offerings: then shall they lay calves upon thy altar.


Edited by The Zebu (03/04/15 03:28 PM)
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#97168 - 03/04/15 03:11 PM Re: Religious Animal Sacrifice [Re: Dimitri]
Caladrius Offline
member


Registered: 07/25/09
Posts: 339
Loc: SoCal
 Originally Posted By: Caladerp
You nut swing on ONA MSS,
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri

Look who's talking...



Exactly. That's how it happens. You have a handful of people such as A.L., Beesty, Hagur, R. Parker, R.F., perhaps myself, do the talking. What we few say becomes o9a essays and so on. Then, people like you read such essays, and borrow the ideas.

The difference between you and me is that you nut swing, and I'm an original source. The difference is that many of my ideas, views, memes, live in your head, and none of your's live in mine.



Edited by Caladrius (03/04/15 03:21 PM)

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#97169 - 03/04/15 03:25 PM Re: Religious Animal Sacrifice [Re: SIN3]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1647
Loc: Orlando, FL
 Quote:
Besides, this topic was beat to death with a stick ( here) , as it pertains to practices that would have been in direct opposition of the social landscape at that time which gave rise to Dakshinacarians.


Indeed, social context determines whether a particular action is taboo, and thus a potential vehicle for Left-Handed initiation.

It is interesting to note, however, that Eshu is considered the ruler of the Ajogun (Powers of the Left), and in his role as Divine Trickster goes about causing chaos and dealing out the hard knocks for the sake of enlightening others, much in the way that Shiva or Bacchus might. I have also read (I cannot now recall where) that there were also cults to Eshu that practiced ritual homosexuality, which is considered dissolute in traditional Yoruba culture... I have not seen any further evidence that there was/is a close parallel to the Left Hand Path in African spirituality but given that some basic elements are there I would not be surprised were this discovered to be the case.


Edited by The Zebu (03/04/15 03:27 PM)
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#97170 - 03/04/15 03:32 PM Re: Religious Animal Sacrifice [Re: SIN3]
JamesSTL Offline
member


Registered: 11/29/13
Posts: 312
Loc: St. Louis
Sin:

I think "ritualized killing" or "ritualized slaughter" is a better fit from a LHP point-of-view.

A theoretical psychodrama enactment: Use an animal as the effigy of an enemy, slay the animal and devour the animal, symbolically representing the killing and devouring of said enemy.

. . .

Zebu: Your traditional descriptions were not was I was referring to. I was speaking about an arbitrary "sacrificial act" that involves no investment and/or loss.

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#97173 - 03/04/15 05:22 PM Re: Religious Animal Sacrifice [Re: JamesSTL]
SIN3 Offline
stalker


Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 7190
Loc: Virginia
Something to consider. I'll take it under advisement and see where I can implant it into future discussions.

The Santera is putting me in contact with some Palo folks, so I'll make it a point to bring it up. I have a special interest in Palo-Mayombe as it pertains to specific ritual killings involving beheading human victims and maintaining a head collection on one's altar. There's been a few cases in the last decade or so, some were prosecuted by local officials, while others where left to their devices.

 Quote:
I was speaking about an arbitrary "sacrificial act" that involves no investment and/or loss.


Do you mean a person just doing this as matter of fact, part of a specific tradition (self-created or no) where the person is just going through the motions but doesn't necessarily put in or get anything out of it except maybe dinner?

I haven't encountered this, not even with the Neopagans I know that practice ritual sacrifice (Asatru folks come to mind right off the bat).

It seems they make a big to-do about it like this animal needs to be regarded as something very important, serving an important role within their practices. Even that's an investment. I mean, how seriously could you look at a chicken like it was the holiest of holies?

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#97174 - 03/04/15 05:29 PM Re: Religious Animal Sacrifice [Re: Dimitri]
Czereda Offline
senior member


Registered: 03/14/11
Posts: 2118
Loc: Poland
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
I prefer to live in this bland world without magic and wishfull thinking.


Actually, religion, magic and wishful thinking can have an enormous impact on business. I remember the hot debate in my country about kosher meat and the ritual slaughter of animals. When the ritual slaughter of animals was prohibited, the slaughterhouses that occupied themselves with it and also companies that imported the kosher meat to Israel started having enormous financial problems. And that, in turn, affected the whole import in a negative way. Finally, the ban was declared unconstitutional to the consternation of animal rights activists, but to the joy of Jews and these businesses that catered to their needs.

Of course, in the case of the ritual killing of animals for kosher meat, it's not a sacrifice per se, but nevertheless, it's a sacred ritualized activity connected to specific religion and culture. Also, in this case, the meat is eaten.

Personally, I don't have issues with animal sacrifice, whether the meat is eaten or not. It has always accompanied the human civilization so it doesn't really shock or disgusts me. Hell, even Yahweh "demanded" animal sacrifice.

 Originally Posted By: Caladrius
Genuine elevation is when a person has been uplifted by his/her peers.


Bullshit, unless you just wanted to crack a joke. You are what you are, irrespective of the number of kudos you get from your peers.
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#97175 - 03/04/15 05:33 PM Re: Religious Animal Sacrifice [Re: JamesSTL]
The Archangel Offline
stranger


Registered: 02/22/15
Posts: 12
Loc: Florida
 Quote:
I think "ritualized killing" or "ritualized slaughter" is a better fit from a LHP point-of-view.


I try to remind myself that the LHP is only desirable because it is a good fit for me, rather than succumbing to the illusion that I am desirable because I am a good fit for the LHP. In any case, I think some LHP practitioners (theistic ones perhaps) are fond of making personal sacrifices to express a certain brand of emotion that another may feel no need to express. I think that sacrifice in GBM may train a sympathetic persona for use in LBM right out of LaVey's Satanic Bible. Does this fly in the face of his views against self-sacrifice? It doesn't matter.

I gather that you do not perceive any gain in practicing self-sacrifice and so I won't dwell on that here. In closing, I'm sure you can read the Satanic Witch and understand the power of sympathy for yourself.
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#97177 - 03/04/15 05:58 PM Re: Religious Animal Sacrifice [Re: Czereda]
Caladrius Offline
member


Registered: 07/25/09
Posts: 339
Loc: SoCal
 Originally Posted By: Czereda


 Originally Posted By: Caladrius
Genuine elevation is when a person has been uplifted by his/her peers.


Bullshit, unless you just wanted to crack a joke. You are what you are, irrespective of the number of kudos you get from your peers.


My statement is best understood in context.

When you have gained a practical understanding and experience of such things as as: word of mouth advertisement, marketing and advertising; what power, influence are; what support has to do with anything; politics; how public opinion can make or break a business or politician; the dynamics of social order; and so on: you will understand my statement better and in the proper context, and the importance of social/people skills.

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#97178 - 03/04/15 06:35 PM Re: Religious Animal Sacrifice [Re: Caladrius]
Czereda Offline
senior member


Registered: 03/14/11
Posts: 2118
Loc: Poland
 Quote:
My statement is best understood in context.


Of course, you wrote this:

Genuine elevation is when a person has been uplifted by his/her peers. Over the many years I have seen "Megatron" being uplifted in different ways by his peers: praise, kudos, respect, and otherwise.

On the other hand, over the years, I've seen nobody give a shit enough about you to lift you up or elevate you, beyond the ground level creature that you are: Pedestrian in nature and physis.


The amount of praise or criticism will not change your nature. It will not change who you are. Dimitri is not "pedestrian" in nature, whatever the hell that means, because he can stand his ground in a discussion and deal with rejection and criticism. That doesn't mean he doesn't talk out of his *** from time to time, but we all have our better and worse days.

 Quote:
When you have gained a practical understanding and experience of such things as as: word of mouth advertisement, marketing and advertising; what power, influence are; what support has to do with anything; politics; how public opinion can make or break a business or politician; the dynamics of social order; and so on: you will understand my statement better and in the proper context, and the importance of social/people skills.


It's all nice and dandy, but this is just a forum. JK and Dimitri have no influence outside the Satanic forums. If Xear one day gets bored and closes down this forum and other Satanic forums disappear, nobody will remember Dimitri, JK, Czereda, Dan, AK, FS and many many other users here and elsewhere and their ramblings. Except perhaps the very few people, like Michael Aquino and you, though your writings are just a drop in the vast O9A ocean.

So get real. No need to suck up to others, because there is nothing to gain or lose.
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Crazy Cat Lady

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#97181 - 03/04/15 08:32 PM Re: Religious Animal Sacrifice [Re: JamesSTL]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1647
Loc: Orlando, FL
 Quote:

Zebu: Your traditional descriptions were not was I was referring to. I was speaking about an arbitrary "sacrificial act" that involves no investment and/or loss.


Ah, in that case I agree with you on that point.

 Quote:
A theoretical psychodrama enactment: Use an animal as the effigy of an enemy, slay the animal and devour the animal, symbolically representing the killing and devouring of said enemy.


Come to think of it there are actual spells in grimoires associated with Saint Cyprian wherein an animal such as a toad is used as a living poppet, stabbing it and then saying something such as "It is not the limbs of this toad that I pierce, but the limbs of (Name), in the name of the three devils Lucifer, Satanas, Barabbas, &c...". Given the theory of destructive magic in TSB it would certainly be "black magic" in principle by LaVeyan criteria (minus the helpless animal torture)...

However, it would not neccesarily be "LHP" in the self-transgressive sense, unless you are doing it deliberately to overcome your own revulsion to killing animals. Throwing curses and death magic is not Sinister by itself, which is why practical operative magic--"lesser", "lower", "external" magic--is usually viewed as being of secondary significance to workings directly aimed at self-actualization through self-overcoming.

But of course we are left with the awkward question of how desensitizing yourself to the sight of toad guts makes you any better of a Satanist. It is better to aim such methods at the subtler and more deeply-rooted aspects of your personality.


Edited by The Zebu (03/04/15 08:35 PM)
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#97186 - 03/05/15 03:58 AM Re: Religious Animal Sacrifice [Re: Caladrius]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3385
 Originally Posted By: Caladerp
Exactly. That's how it happens. You have a handful of people such as A.L., Beesty, Hagur, R. Parker, R.F., perhaps myself, do the talking. What we few say becomes o9a essays and so on. Then, people like you read such essays, and borrow the ideas.

The difference between you and me is that you nut swing, and I'm an original source. The difference is that many of my ideas, views, memes, live in your head, and none of your's live in mine.

You're overrating yourself. Those "memes" you keep talking about have been around from way before any of these people started walking the planet. The only thing you did was to expand vocabulary. Granted, I've been utilizing words which you've dubbed as "ONA lexicon"... purely by reason they convey the message more concisely [and it would have otherwise taken me a few lines to expand and clarify].

By all means, these "ideas" you're talking about are all but original and do occur in other "philosophies" and movements..

 Originally Posted By: Czereda
Actually, religion, magic and wishful thinking can have an enormous impact on business. I remember the hot debate in my country about kosher meat and the ritual slaughter of animals. When the ritual slaughter of animals was prohibited, the slaughterhouses that occupied themselves with it and also companies that imported the kosher meat to Israel started having enormous financial problems. And that, in turn, affected the whole import in a negative way. Finally, the ban was declared unconstitutional to the consternation of animal rights activists, but to the joy of Jews and these businesses that catered to their needs.

I'm not as alienated from society to think religion isn't bussiness. However, the act itself, to me, still seems to be a waste of energy and perfectly good meat.

Not to mention the subsequent limitations that traditionally come with sanctifications and ritualistic bullcrap.
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#97189 - 03/05/15 06:32 AM Re: Religious Animal Sacrifice [Re: Dimitri]
Megatron Offline
active member


Registered: 08/22/14
Posts: 859
Loc: fuckit, some kid cracked my co...
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
You're overrating yourself. Those "memes" you keep talking about have been around from way before any of these people started walking the planet. The only thing you did was to expand vocabulary. Granted, I've been utilizing words which you've dubbed as "ONA lexicon"... purely by reason they convey the message more concisely [and it would have otherwise taken me a few lines to expand and clarify].


How can you say she is overrating herself when you just flatly admitted that she has had an effect on your vocabulary? I mean seriously. As anyone with any degree of skill understands, words/sounds/scripts/language is the Oldest Art. And you just granted the fact that you are in her debt in that regard.

Perhaps if you had any degree of originality, you would have been able to coin your own terms. Every thinker worthy of his or her weight carries a unique vocabulary (or technical jargon) in order to simplify the presentation of their personal philosophy. The fact that you add nothing new, while simultaneously biting on others and somehow pretending to dismiss their importance is telling.

Your dictionary entry would look something like this:

Dimitri (n): VACUOUS.

Meaning your entire existence is nothing more than a synonym. A q.v., or "see also".
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Oh, and I spell everything right.

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#97191 - 03/05/15 07:14 AM Re: Religious Animal Sacrifice [Re: Megatron]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3385
 Originally Posted By: MEGADERP
How can you say she is overrating herself when you just flatly admitted that she has had an effect on your vocabulary? I mean seriously. As anyone with any degree of skill understands, words/sounds/scripts/language is the Oldest Art. And you just granted the fact that you are in her debt in that regard.

... she would have earned the credits if she conveyed original ideas. The difference here is having "learned" new words (you know.. not being a native English speaker..) to more easily convey ideas that were already present . The same might have happened if I were to read and memorize the entire English dictionary..

 Originally Posted By: A rusty decepticon
Every thinker worthy of his or her weight carries a unique vocabulary (or technical jargon) in order to simplify the presentation of their personal philosophy. The fact that you add nothing new, while simultaneously biting on others and somehow pretending to dismiss their importance is telling.

And I'm just the guy who prefers to see some brawl accompagnied with some brain.

You know what's also telling? That I managed to push the correct buttons to give your little swagger a good kick in the nuts.

It's weird isn't it? You, talking about importance yet having to bite the gravel everytime someone like me comes along...
Breaking the fourth wall has always been a hobby of mine. It's more pleasant than the circlejerking, or discussions, that are being held about it.


Edited by Dimitri (03/05/15 07:15 AM)
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#97198 - 03/05/15 10:51 AM Re: Religious Animal Sacrifice [Re: The Archangel]
SIN3 Offline
stalker


Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 7190
Loc: Virginia
 Originally Posted By: The Archangel
In any case, I think some LHP practitioners (theistic ones perhaps) are fond of making personal sacrifices to express a certain brand of emotion that another may feel no need to express. I think that sacrifice in GBM may train a sympathetic persona for use in LBM right out of LaVey's Satanic Bible. Does this fly in the face of his views against self-sacrifice? It doesn't matter.


I don't think its limited to Theistic belief, psychodrama using an animal, just makes 'good show'; especially if the desired effect is to endure a killing. We can make sweeping generalizations about it all day but unless we have opportunity to speak to the specific person performing the act, we won't really 'know' why they do it.
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#97200 - 03/05/15 12:05 PM Re: Religious Animal Sacrifice [Re: Dimitri]
Megatron Offline
active member


Registered: 08/22/14
Posts: 859
Loc: fuckit, some kid cracked my co...
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
 Originally Posted By: The King
How can you say she is overrating herself when you just flatly admitted that she has had an effect on your vocabulary? I mean seriously. As anyone with any degree of skill understands, words/sounds/scripts/language is the Oldest Art. And you just granted the fact that you are in her debt in that regard.

... she would have earned the credits if she conveyed original ideas.


LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL. The level of projection here is just fucking priceless. Coming as it does from The Least Original Punk-Ass-Bitch Anywhere (TM).
Trust me when I say this, and then wipe that empty space between your ears with it when I'm done: Caladrius has forgotten more genuine knowledge than you will ever possess.



 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
You know what's also telling? That I managed to push the correct buttons to give your little swagger a good kick in the nuts.
(italics mine)

Do you see what I just did here? I pointed to a direct projection (ironically, of power) of you onto me. It wasn't me projecting power onto myself, that shit was all you, dude.



 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
It's weird isn't it? You, talking about importance yet having to bite the gravel everytime someone like me comes along...


Importance? Me? As a proper topic of discourse?

Show me when (hyperlinks please), or sit your ass down and shut the fuck up. And that's a direct challenge.
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#97204 - 03/05/15 12:51 PM Re: Religious Animal Sacrifice [Re: Dimitri]
Caladrius Offline
member


Registered: 07/25/09
Posts: 339
Loc: SoCal
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri


 Originally Posted By: A rusty decepticon
Every thinker worthy of his or her weight carries a unique vocabulary (or technical jargon) in order to simplify the presentation of their personal philosophy. The fact that you add nothing new, while simultaneously biting on others and somehow pretending to dismiss their importance is telling.

And I'm just the guy who prefers to see some brawl accompagnied with some brain.


Brain? Who you? Lol. You can tell the potency of someone's brain by seeing if they have wit, and how witty the person is. You Dimitri, have no sense of wit. The thoughts you have produced the past 7 years are average and common. Your Internet "brawl" is the action and behaviour of an insecure individual.

You'll never understand or admit it, but it's Producers like Megatron, Dan Dread... Anton Long, LaVey, Dr.Mike, etc., who give Consumers like you your worldviews, world models, the language and lexicon you think in, you thoughts/ideas, and so on.

By your very nature/dharma, you are a consumer and not a Producer. That's fundamental and the proper perspective and pecking order we're dealing with.


Edited by Caladrius (03/05/15 12:52 PM)

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#97217 - 03/05/15 05:53 PM Re: Religious Animal Sacrifice [Re: Caladrius]
Czereda Offline
senior member


Registered: 03/14/11
Posts: 2118
Loc: Poland
 Quote:
You'll never understand or admit it, but it's Producers like Megatron, Dan Dread... Anton Long, LaVey, Dr.Mike, etc., who give Consumers like you your worldviews, world models, the language and lexicon you think in, you thoughts/ideas, and so on.


With all due respect for JK and Dan (they aint stupid), putting them in the same line with Anton LaVey and Anton Long is a bit of a category mistake, I think. I wouldn't even place Michael Aquino here, though he managed to build his own philosophy. However, his influence is smaller than that of Anton LaVey or even Anton Long.

Anton LaVey and Anton Long are the guys who created their own original philosophies, their own paradigms, though, they themselves were influenced to some degree by others before them. Nevertheless, their influence is considerable in general and enormous in the Satanic subculture. Would this forum or other Satanic forums or blogs exist if it weren't for Anton LaVey and his influence? Would there be any O9A nexions or people writing blogs or posts about the O9A if it weren't for Anton Long?

And the rest... well... we are all mere forum users here and elsewhere and the influence of anyone here is tiny, though some of us write or used to write blogs, make or used to make You Tube videos. And we are all consumers here, drawing inspiration from Anton LaVey, Anton Long and other sources. True, some people here are more intelligent, erudite and imaginative than others, but I wouldn't blow it out of proportion, unless you have some vested interest in telling fables.


Edited by Czereda (03/05/15 05:55 PM)
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#97231 - 03/06/15 02:37 AM Re: Religious Animal Sacrifice [Re: Megatron]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3385
It's quite interesting to see you two trying to cling onto your self-professed importance. Interesting in the sense if I should laugh or feel pity...

I see you guys talking about knowledge.. which knowledge?
You mean those recycled ideas from various other authors, "genuine producers" as you would like to call it, you've been tossing around like good little followers (the word "sheep" should be appropriate)? It's all good if you feel important because of it.. the general reaction will remain a resounding "meh".

It's like I said, there's no original idea that has been conveyed by the two of you. Only a flamboyant nut-swining and trying to be push-overs. ;\)
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#97236 - 03/06/15 08:42 AM Re: Religious Animal Sacrifice [Re: SIN3]
antikarmatomic Offline
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Registered: 09/22/13
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 Originally Posted By: SIN3
I mean, how seriously could you look at a chicken like it was the holiest of holies?


For some reason this guy comes to mind.

Obviously what we are looking at here is none other than the Set of the Muppet pantheon. Funny nose? Check. No one knows what animal it's supposed to be? Check. Possibly an alien? Check.

I'm certain 50th century occultists and cultural-anthropologists will rack-their brains over the enigma that is he for many a decade to no avail.

Some may even form temples in his name. \:D



Edited by antikarmatomic (03/06/15 09:05 AM)
Edit Reason: Edit Reason: finish kape first, then start writing.
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#97238 - 03/06/15 09:44 AM Re: Religious Animal Sacrifice [Re: Dimitri]
Megatron Offline
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Registered: 08/22/14
Posts: 859
Loc: fuckit, some kid cracked my co...
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
It's quite interesting to see you two trying to cling onto your self-professed importance.


Again, clown, when did I ever argue "importance"? Anywhere? Ever?

You can shut me up and make me sit the fuck down with one, just ONE hyperlink. Can you do it? Do you have the tenacity? The nuts?

Of course not. It's all a bit of projection on your part. Meaning (spelled out for idiots, dummies, and retards) that YOU feel unimportant in your own existence, Dimitri. And not just a little unimportant. Vastly under-appreciated, unaccepted, and downright shunned. You're even embarrassed of your own appearance. Prove me wrong, clown . . .

 Originally Posted By: Czereda
Anton LaVey and Anton Long are the guys who created their own original philosophies, their own paradigms, though, they themselves were influenced to some degree by others before them.


And yet, you make a category mistake. Postmodern Satanism, as an understanding, is rather original. Much more so than LaVey, although I will give Myatt his due, that nigga was killin' cats while I was still eating babies.

Anywho, I really think you might want to think things through. My own philosophy (and Dan's as well) is(are) somewhat unique. All great thinkers stand on the shoulders of the giants that came prior, and no one is exempt. After all, Jesus was a fucking Jew . . .
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#97246 - 03/06/15 01:21 PM Re: Religious Animal Sacrifice [Re: Megatron]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3385
Funny guy you are.. first claiming you are not arguing about importance to only argue about it in the second next line. ;\)

 Originally Posted By: Megaderp
Postmodern Satanism, as an understanding, is rather original.

Am I the only one who's smelling bias?
I thought it was rather unoriginal. When it came down to it, it was a mere rehearsal of TSB. To be brutally honest, it was as if you took TSB and let it do a few merry-go-rounds on the post-modernism generator.

Now before you, once again, knee-jerk for being kicked in the balls and start complaining/ "challenging" (lolololol) in hopes for staying relevant.. I lack the messias-complex to be vocal about personal philosophies.. they being personal and shit.. (rather obvious when you think about it really..)
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#97255 - 03/06/15 04:14 PM Re: Religious Animal Sacrifice [Re: Megatron]
Czereda Offline
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Registered: 03/14/11
Posts: 2118
Loc: Poland
 Originally Posted By: Megatron
My own philosophy (and Dan's as well) is(are) somewhat unique. All great thinkers stand on the shoulders of the giants that came prior, and no one is exempt. After all, Jesus was a fucking Jew . . .


Actually, I don't give a fuck about both of you. To me you are like many other users on this forum and sure as hell, you aren't great thinkers. Get real. You aren't LaVey or Long. And though I usually like Dan's humorous ripostes, you, JK, are a mere shadow of yourself. You wrote one book and now what? You link from time to time to your old videos, where are the new ones?

You used to rock at SIN, but now you're like that washy party dress, half-eaten by the moths. The same happened to other "heavy hitters" from SIN. No matter how many times you pat each other on the back, you stand for the good old days gone with the wind. You smell of decay.

 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
good little followers... sheep


Two things to consider, Dimitri:
1. Appearances can be misleading.
2. The glorious end justifies the means, however vile or, in other words: The most mundane deeds can have a sinister result.

That being said, I think, it would be a good idea if we had here a like button, or better, a kudos button so that we could give kudos to each other. Also, the front page should show not the most active users but the users with the greatest number of kudos. At last, we would know how the pecking order here looks like and how it keeps changing every day.
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#97263 - 03/06/15 10:08 PM Re: Religious Animal Sacrifice [Re: Czereda]
JamesSTL Offline
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Registered: 11/29/13
Posts: 312
Loc: St. Louis
In our modern time, should we not consider taxes a sacrifice to the great goddess State? To appease State, lest She send Her great legion of emissaries, IRS, to exact Her wrathful tribute?

Is there anything more sinister than a tax cheat?

Edit: AK, the Gonzo analysis is ON POINT!


Edited by JamesSTL (03/06/15 10:20 PM)

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#97267 - 03/07/15 07:18 AM Re: Religious Animal Sacrifice [Re: JamesSTL]
The Zebu Offline
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Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1647
Loc: Orlando, FL
Quite so. Taxes are literally a tribute of homage to the state. It's not so different from Roman citizens being forced to sacrifice incense before the Emperor's image as a show of loyalty to the state which was ostensibly guided by his genius / divine higher self. And actual taxes, of course.

Perhaps given the current decay of traditional religious institutions in the West, it might not be too far-fetched to suggest that it indicates less of a triumph of reason and progress, but more of a victory of secular statism and mercantilism over the ecclesiastical edifices that threatened to dwarf them in the Middle Ages?
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#97271 - 03/07/15 09:01 AM Re: Religious Animal Sacrifice [Re: JamesSTL]
SIN3 Offline
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Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 7190
Loc: Virginia
 Originally Posted By: JamesSTL
In our modern time, should we not consider taxes a sacrifice to the great goddess State? To appease State, lest She send Her great legion of emissaries, IRS, to exact Her wrathful tribute?

Is there anything more sinister than a tax cheat?

Edit: AK, the Gonzo analysis is ON POINT!


Sure but these are just contextual concerns. The context here, is in how this life is taken. Killing. Not to say that citizens refusing to pay their taxes haven't been held at gun-point, ( a threat of killing as a form of coercion) but this speaks to the weight of the threat.

When one human takes another's life contextually society calls this Murder. When taking the life of other animals, it calls it a Kill. Slaughter certainly applies, especially in numbers. The U.S. has had its Massacres (i.e. The Boston Massacre) carried out by the State. Thus, history demonstrates through 'Education' that the threat is Real. Those killed by the State can be referred to as Sacrificial Lambs killed in the name of the Politics. Through Nero's Lens we can even say it's a Ritualized Slaughter. We see this every day when the State moves as a Sinister force to enact its Politics and force it on others; 'humanely' killing other human animals in battle. Those culled from the battlefield are treated a specific way even if in the shadows it thumbs its nose at The Geneva Convention. (Abu Gharib is merely one example of being caught its pants down (thus used by the TST in art exhibition)).

So you see, the context can be bent this way and that but at the end of the day, what Sacrifice actually means needs a specific incident to qualify it. A Ritualized Slaughter in the name of (fill in the blank) can be made a Sacrifice but can we agree that it requires something/someone to be dead?
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#97273 - 03/07/15 09:29 AM Re: Religious Animal Sacrifice [Re: SIN3]
JamesSTL Offline
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Registered: 11/29/13
Posts: 312
Loc: St. Louis
I would say sacrifice "requires something to be offered", but not necessarily "something to be dead".

But of course, blood sacrifice is undoubtedly the ultimate offering. The finality of death speaks to our primordially innate "philosophy of biology" -- sex and death.

As Nietzsche said, although this is somewhat out of context:

"Of all that is written, I love only what a person hath written with his blood. Write with blood, and thou wilt find that blood is spirit."

Blood is spirit. Indeed.

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#97275 - 03/07/15 09:59 AM Re: Religious Animal Sacrifice [Re: JamesSTL]
The Zebu Offline
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Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1647
Loc: Orlando, FL
Does sacrifice require death? Sometimes, but not always. I believe that society, as an amorphous entity, inherently demands some form of death and murder to validate its sense of justification. Whether it is wars, pogroms, lynchings, et cetera. It does not take much more than a few accusations of rape or pedophilia to get even our most flaccid American citizens screaming death threats and howling for blood. Often, far less.

On an organized scale, such as formal wars, and judicial executions, this can even seem ritualistic in form--often producing very strong cathartic and psychologically conditioning effects even upon those who otherwise have no practical stake in the drama. Powerful magic indeed.


Edited by The Zebu (03/07/15 10:01 AM)
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#97280 - 03/07/15 11:07 AM Re: Religious Animal Sacrifice [Re: JamesSTL]
SIN3 Offline
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Loc: Virginia
 Originally Posted By: JamesSTL
blood sacrifice is undoubtedly the ultimate offering. The finality of death speaks to our primordially innate "philosophy of biology" -- sex and death.


Most if not all Religions are hard centered on both are they not? Human experience unto itself is concerned with these things and Religions are wrought by expressions of them.

That said, what is in the Blood doesn't appear to be Arbitrary to the person carrying out the deed.

 Quote:
Blood is spirit. Indeed.


Spirit (or Spiritism) seems to be what they are offering up in Sacrifice. If the vessel for it happens to be an Animal, people appear to empathize with it, much like people lament over being broke.
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#97329 - 03/08/15 07:53 PM Re: Religious Animal Sacrifice [Re: SIN3]
JamesSTL Offline
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Registered: 11/29/13
Posts: 312
Loc: St. Louis
So what I'm getting at here is that the idea of "sacrifice", being an offering to an exterior sovereign/entity/deity/what-have-you, is not a part of what at least I consider a "LHP outlook", where the "Self" is posited as the practitioner's "center of authority".

I guess "LHP" is somewhat ill-defined, and I can only speak for myself. For instance, would other users consider literal "devil worship"/submission to a sentient devil deity "LHP"?

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#97330 - 03/08/15 07:59 PM Re: Religious Animal Sacrifice [Re: JamesSTL]
SIN3 Offline
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That sounds funny to me, given that all Religions, every last one of them, are man-made and these things are just projections of self. Hopes, wants, needs, the Spirit in motion. Even when a person claims to be in the thralls of God, is this thing really outside of them? So when they 'make sacrifice' its like ego-thumping. "Give me what I want!" It be like screaming in a mirror.

LHP isn't ill-defined at all, hell Devil Worship thumbs its nose at the status quo. I'm not saying its in practice by prolifically smart people that blow your mind every time you encounter them. All I'm saying is that there can be no submission if there isn't anything there but YOU.
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#97333 - 03/08/15 08:26 PM Re: Religious Animal Sacrifice [Re: SIN3]
JamesSTL Offline
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Registered: 11/29/13
Posts: 312
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I'm totally with you in that concepts like sentient deities are projections of the psyche, or even the "collective psyche"... or what you've similarly described in other threads as the "meta".

The problem is that this is not the viewpoint of those "believers" who submit to the imaginary unicorn princess.

To the theist, the "not-I" deity is considered quite real and fundamentally outside of the Self, whether in an immanent or transient (or both) capacity.

Unless we are to consider such immanent entities as the Federal Government as a manifestation of our psyche... solipsism, where things get fuzzy.

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#111650 - 03/07/17 03:03 PM Re: Religious Animal Sacrifice [Re: SIN3]
SIN3 Offline
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Loc: Virginia
Occult Tower - Blood Sacrifice with (believe it or not) Robert Fraize. Haverill, MA gave him a local access spot. Second episode covers blood sacrifice.

 Quote:
Reverend Robert Fraize, leader of the Theistic Satanism Church, wants to bring awareness of the practices of Satanism and its teachings. Giving a monthly sermons calling upon a demon to protect and serve the citizens of Haverhill.


I just can't with this shit. To each his own endeavor I suppose.
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#113553 - 07/20/17 08:23 PM Re: Religious Animal Sacrifice [Re: antikarmatomic]
Azrael999 Offline
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Registered: 05/20/13
Posts: 66
Bulls eye.
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#116334 - 05/26/18 06:16 PM Re: Religious Animal Sacrifice [Re: SIN3]
Dark One Offline
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Registered: 02/01/18
Posts: 84
When people sacrificed animals back in the day they just used the standard method of slaughter said a prayer of thanks giving to a god in question and ate the meat afterwards. So I don't really think there is much of a problem with the historical context.

It would be difficult to really bring it back today as our culture and the way we kill animals for meat has changed somewhat. It would have to be carried out by someone for who the traditional way of animal slaughter is their trained profession. Though these people would tend to be Muslims or Jews they're not going to want to take part in a Satanic rite.

Halal or Kosher meat is about as near as you will get to animals that are ritually slaughtered in a religious context for food. Though there is a group of pagans still living in Russia who practice animal sacrifice at large scale community events. Something like that may be possible if you get a large enough community together in a particular place and you have the people who can humanely carry out the slaughter. It would be kind of nice to see something like that brought back I suppose, there's a question of how humane it would be for the animals in question but it would likely be about as stressful to them as being slaughtered in an abattoir the usual way.

A modern day version could involve a bolt gun to the head and or electric stunning there are no written rules on how the animals are to be sacrificed. Unless you're a vegetarian you shouldn't have any problem with this.

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#116342 - 05/27/18 06:40 PM Re: Religious Animal Sacrifice [Re: Dark One]
ShadowLover Offline
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Registered: 05/26/16
Posts: 351
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I'm not that familiar of the history of animal ritual sacrifice, but I think one of the major differences between the old days and now lies in the value of the animal. Back then, the animal slaughtered was valuable, in that it probably fed the family for a week. In other words, it wasn't just the animals life being sacrificed, but the comfort of the self and the family. In this way, a comparable sacrifice might be burning a half a weeks wages.

An even greater sacrifice might have been sacrificing your prize ram, or a young ewe, as you would also be offering future wealth.

Of course, this depends on the motivation or intended gesture behind the sacrifice - what is your sacrifice saying and what are you actually sacrificing?
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#116346 - 05/28/18 04:01 PM Re: Religious Animal Sacrifice [Re: Dark One]
samowens84 Offline
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Registered: 09/29/16
Posts: 667
 Originally Posted By: Dark One
When people sacrificed animals back in the day they just used the standard method of slaughter said a prayer of thanks giving to a god in question and ate the meat afterwards. So I don't really think there is much of a problem with the historical context.

It would be difficult to really bring it back today as our culture and the way we kill animals for meat has changed somewhat. It would have to be carried out by someone for who the traditional way of animal slaughter is their trained profession. Though these people would tend to be Muslims or Jews they're not going to want to take part in a Satanic rite.

Halal or Kosher meat is about as near as you will get to animals that are ritually slaughtered in a religious context for food. Though there is a group of pagans still living in Russia who practice animal sacrifice at large scale community events. Something like that may be possible if you get a large enough community together in a particular place and you have the people who can humanely carry out the slaughter. It would be kind of nice to see something like that brought back I suppose, there's a question of how humane it would be for the animals in question but it would likely be about as stressful to them as being slaughtered in an abattoir the usual way.

A modern day version could involve a bolt gun to the head and or electric stunning there are no written rules on how the animals are to be sacrificed. Unless you're a vegetarian you shouldn't have any problem with this.



Except that its gratuitous and unnecessary for magical purposes. Just like my laziness in editing your long ass block quote. Does laziness count as a ceremonial sacrifice if it aggravates the intended victim and gives me pleasure at the same time? Seems a bit more Satanic and pleasurable then torturing animals for the purposes of public fetishism.

But all joking aside lets take a vote and see if we can allow this stuff to flourish in the Satanic community. I vote brownies.

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#116348 - 05/28/18 05:57 PM Re: Religious Animal Sacrifice [Re: samowens84]
Dark One Offline
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Registered: 02/01/18
Posts: 84
 Originally Posted By: samowens84


But all joking aside lets take a vote and see if we can allow this stuff to flourish in the Satanic community. I vote brownies.


I don't see how being sacrificed as part of a religious ritual is any worse than the conventional process of being slaughtered for food. The animal is going to suffer a bit of discomfort and distress and then finally be killed either way. There would of course be a ceremonial feast of the sacrificed animal afterwards shared by the community of worshippers. That was always part of a traditional animal sacrifice for however many tens of thousands of years we're talking about.

I think it would be really nice to see this ancient tradition brought back after it's 1.5 thousand year hiatus and it would of course have tremendous shock impact for the 'non-believers'. Satanism is much better suited for bringing this ancient pre-Christian rite back rather than say...Wicca, ugh.

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#116349 - 05/28/18 10:17 PM Re: Religious Animal Sacrifice [Re: Dark One]
samowens84 Offline
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Registered: 09/29/16
Posts: 667
 Originally Posted By: Dark One
 Originally Posted By: samowens84


But all joking aside lets take a vote and see if we can allow this stuff to flourish in the Satanic community. I vote brownies.


I don't see how being sacrificed as part of a religious ritual is any worse than the conventional process of being slaughtered for food. The animal is going to suffer a bit of discomfort and distress and then finally be killed either way. There would of course be a ceremonial feast of the sacrificed animal afterwards shared by the community of worshippers. That was always part of a traditional animal sacrifice for however many tens of thousands of years we're talking about.

I think it would be really nice to see this ancient tradition brought back after it's 1.5 thousand year hiatus and it would of course have tremendous shock impact for the 'non-believers'. Satanism is much better suited for bringing this ancient pre-Christian rite back rather than say...Wicca, ugh.


You had me up until "community of worshippers." Or "Shock value" or whatever. Something tells me you know better ;). I think it would be kinda satanic if the witch behind the rite got all the worshippers to drink toilet water and pay her bills. Now THAT would be Satanic.

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#116350 - 05/29/18 02:06 AM Re: Religious Animal Sacrifice [Re: samowens84]
Dark One Offline
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Registered: 02/01/18
Posts: 84
 Originally Posted By: samowens84


You had me up until "community of worshippers." Or "Shock value" or whatever. Something tells me you know better ;). I think it would be kinda satanic if the witch behind the rite got all the worshippers to drink toilet water and pay her bills. Now THAT would be Satanic.


Community of pagan believers back in the day the purpose of an animal sacrifice was to cement a community of people together. Satanists are still pagans even if they don't particularly like the community aspect this is a real world past religious tradition. Satanism is still going to be your best bet for bringing something like this back. It wouldn't be Asatru as all they seem to do is sing hymns from the Edda's in a Christian Church. Seeing a full blown 'traditional' Satanic sacrifice in the black robes with an animal blood poured over an alter or image of Satan is certainly going to have shock value for Christians and Muslims, atheists would raise an eyebrow as well.

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#119613 - 07/14/19 08:13 PM Re: Religious Animal Sacrifice [Re: Dark One]
fiendish Offline
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Registered: 02/27/16
Posts: 585
Bullfighting is animal sacrifice in a way. Sacrifice generally has to do with the anticipation of symbols as real entities. With the lack of ability of the masses to understand of symbols as philosophical meanings, with the lack of knowledge and inspiration in general, zealous turns into massacre.
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#119625 - 07/17/19 01:47 PM Re: Religious Animal Sacrifice [Re: fiendish]
Dark One Offline
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Registered: 02/01/18
Posts: 84
Muslims and Jews arguably practice animal sacrifice regarding Halal and Kosher meat, they say a prayer to God before slaughtering the animal by slitting it's throat open. Halal slaughtered animals have to be facing Mecca so it's a ritualised act of killing they don't just stick a bolt through the back of the skull.

Animal sacrifice if you want to do it 'Satanically' could be something like this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJ_2kpTJvj0

All you would have there is a barbecue and a fancy dress. If you kill the animal you eat yourself that gives you a certain life awareness you wouldn't normally get just buying meat in a packets in the shops. People would have been doing this for practically millions of years before the last couple of centuries sanitised it behind closed doors.

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#119631 - 07/18/19 06:18 PM Re: Religious Animal Sacrifice [Re: Dark One]
fiendish Offline
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Registered: 02/27/16
Posts: 585
Not exactly. Mass production of meat only follows the ritual of profit. That gives much of life awareness to the butcher, I know. Yet, all we're talking about is the ritual of proteins. Do you need all that proteins? And, is the only source slaughtered animals? No. What I mean is that we've got it all wrong and it's very difficult to change this. There's nothing wrong with meat, I think there's a wrong mentality. I think that if we could change the way we think, animal sacrifice would become a minor matter.
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#119637 - 07/19/19 01:43 AM Re: Religious Animal Sacrifice [Re: fiendish]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3385
Ritual of profit? That's just side-effect.

Slaughter has become a whole ritual if you look at it.
Pigs, cows, chickens all raised and prepared to be slaughtered from birth. Transported, treated and cared for until the day arrives.

Led in and stung in a trance through various means before being lead to the next chamber where they will be killed as humanly as possible. Cut open, bled out and gutted through precice coordinated cuts (as if automated ritualism) and used up and spreaded among the masses who partake in the sacrifice in order to strengthen and indulge themselves. This, after the whole procession to the supermarket where they can choose which parts they will partake in.

But I get the mentality issue.
Killing and prepping your own meat is an art in itself. "Processed" meat gets another dimension after doing that.


Edited by Dimitri (07/19/19 01:44 AM)
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