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#17410 - 01/01/09 03:46 AM Re: anyone seen this book [Re: Octavius]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
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Hmm, if titles mean dick, "satanists are what they make of themselves" would mean dick too.

D.

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#17411 - 01/01/09 03:49 AM Re: anyone seen this book [Re: Octavius]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Well happy new year Octavius!

Although I agree with you in that Satanists are what they make of themselves, I would also say that of people in general. Everyone is what they make of themselves, their situations, and their opportunities. Sure.

What I think that statement means, though, is that certain people are born with (or acquire at an early stage in development) certain dispositions, abilities, and tendencies, as to later meet the qualifications of LaVeyan Satanism. I speculate that maybe this particular hunk of memetics was formed to illustrate the idea that Satanism does not seek converts.
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#17413 - 01/01/09 04:06 AM Re: anyone seen this book [Re: Dan_Dread]
Diavolo Offline
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It's not only a hunk of memetics. People are not born with a blank slate and although that some think nurture does more in someone's life than nature, certain aspects of yourself are nature to begin with. Nature endows us with inborn abilities and traits; nurture takes these genetic tendencies and molds them as we learn and mature.

If you're born a moron, no matter what you desire to make yourself and no matter what you are taught, you'll never end up a genius.

D.

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#17438 - 01/01/09 12:03 PM Re: anyone seen this book [Re: Diavolo]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Yes, that's what I said :P

The 'hunk of memetics' I was referring to was the catch phrase 'Satanists are born and not made'

Happy new year D. And I'm afraid you would have to be the mama. Unless you are a 280 pound MMA fighter, your odds of getting on top of me are slim. Just relax and enjoy it...
;\)
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#17470 - 01/01/09 08:21 PM Re: anyone seen this book [Re: The Zebu]
Mike Offline
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Registered: 09/11/07
Posts: 253
Loc: Farmingdale, NY
I've read a book called "The Devil's Bible" online, written by "Father Myrmydon" of the Cathedral of The Black Goat....Half of it was devil worshiping guidelines and how to "sell your soul". The other half was complaining that modern Satanism isn't "real" Satanism because they don't worship Satan.

Maybe someone changed the title on you? Or are you thinking of something different?
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#17474 - 01/01/09 09:59 PM Re: anyone seen this book [Re: Mike]
The Zebu Offline
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Naw, it was this one by "Reverend Caesar 999":
http://www.amazon.com/Satanic-Bible-Rev-...30864043&sr=8-5

I checked out the Devil's Bible and found it on Lulu for $666 dollars paperback... and promptly facepalmed. It's probably trash, but I'd be interested in flipping though it if there were a free pdf somewhere.

Oh and here's a little tip for all the wannabe black popes who might be reading this- if your clerical title sounds like a screenname, chances are nobody will take you seriously.



Edited by The Zebu (01/01/09 10:00 PM)
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#17476 - 01/01/09 10:07 PM Re: anyone seen this book [Re: The Zebu]
Octavius Offline
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Re: Dan...

It's just SO easy to say "Satanists are born not made," when debating with newbies. It's harder to walk the walk AND talk the talk. Explain to them WHY and WHAT Satanism can be and is for the individual. Therein lies an answer with merit, as opposed to regurgitated LaVey. Just sayin'.

You're a pretty smart guy, and I enjoy most of your writing, but you do like to regurgitate LaVey.

Happy New Year to you as well...

Octavius
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#17478 - 01/01/09 10:19 PM Re: anyone seen this book [Re: Octavius]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
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I think that whole "Satanists are born not made" saying was designed to add to the elitist stigma surrounding Satanism. What better way to than to say Satanism is something you are born into. No, Satanism isn't for everyone. However the same sayings could be applied to any religion. One could say that unless you read The Holy Bible and saw your character reflected you are not a Xian. I am living proof that religion isn't for everyone. I believe it is possible for someone to "convert" to Satanism. Just as much as it is possible to convert to any other religion. Of course, you might just say that they were a Satanist the whole time and hadn't found themselves or something like that.
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#17482 - 01/01/09 11:01 PM Re: anyone seen this book [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
The Zebu Offline
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I would have to butt in and say there is a certain distinction.

There is a reason behind the usage of the two separate terms "Born Satanist" and "Born-Again Christian".

Christianity is centered around the idea that the Bible/Christ/God is the ultimate absolute, and that one should adhere to its' teachings regardless of personal conviction. In this view, a person can call themselves "a Christian struggling with their faith" even if they do not agree with it in their hearts. If a Christian is having a crisis of faith, they are encouraged to push all doubts out of their heads through blind faith. Christians want to shut-out all possible threats to their beliefs, and this comes at a heavy cost- that of intellectual honesty.

Furthermore, the "Born Again" phenomenon of how one "finds Jesus" illustrates how people will vilify their past selves as being "lost", "sinful", or "impure", and that they were completely helpless before Christ showed them the light. Although there are some people who are genuinely fucked up by life with things like drugs, and it took religious faith to give them the kick in the ass necessary to set themselves right.

Despite all this, I'm pretty sure that most of the hardcore fundies have been on that path for their whole lives- albeit unknowingly- like Satanists. It just took some self-evaluation. But what annoys me is that they will blatantly lie to your face when they hold up the Bible, and claim it has nothing to do with their personal opinion, despite them wholeheartedly agreeing with every word. Most became Christians because their personal opinion just so happened to fit into a biblical paradigm.

Have you ever heard of a "Satanist struggling with his faith"? Of course not. If there were any, they were most certainly not Satanists for very long. You're either cut out for it, or not.

But overall, I think it's just a nitpicky "nature vs. nurture" nomenclature issue, but what a person identifies themselves as speaks volumes about their philosophical views.
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#18312 - 01/16/09 03:08 PM Re: anyone seen this book [Re: The Zebu]
Draculesti Offline
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I'll throw my two cents in here:

"Satanists are born not made" seems as ludicrous as the Christian idea that we are all born sinners. This, of course, has to do with original sin (thank you, Eve). Therefore, the mere act of being born is a sin and thus life itself is a sin. See how ridiculous this is? Being a newly born being, one has not only not lived long enough to have committed any type of sin, but at birth we are, more or less, like a lump of clay to be molded. It is called development. True, genetics play a small role, but I believe that it is life itself that sculpts us. At birth, we know nothing of religion, morality, ethics, philosophy, sex, etc. We operate on a completely instinctual level. Things like philosophy and religion are not instinctual. We must learn these things. Whether we agree with or dispute these things is not something we are born with, it is a reaction to what we have learned.

Therefore, would it not make sense to say that Satanism, like most everything else, is learned or developed? To say that one is born that way gives it a mystical implication, in my opinion, that most LaVeyan satanists would be careful to avoid.

What say you?
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#18327 - 01/16/09 09:50 PM Re: anyone seen this book [Re: The Zebu]
Fabiano Offline
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Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
I think you raise interresting points here and you seem to grasp the psochology of some Xians.

But let le put it in another light...

However, as "I never seen this book", I'll do it in a new thread

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#18340 - 01/17/09 01:28 AM Re: anyone seen this book [Re: Fabiano]
Dan_Dread Offline
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 Originally Posted By: "Zebu"

Despite all this, I'm pretty sure that most of the hardcore fundies have been on that path for their whole lives- albeit unknowingly- like Satanists.

But of course. Everyone is born of a certain disposition, and with certain inherent characteristics and potentials. Everyone is born into their path. The thing is, though, is that most white light fuzzy feeling belief systems are essentially interchangeable, while there is only one Satanism. There is a lot a variety available to the mushminds of the world.
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#18348 - 01/17/09 07:17 AM Re: anyone seen this book [Re: Draculesti]
Diavolo Offline
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It's a reasonable point you have Draculesti but I don't agree.
It's not identical to the Christian view where all are sinners, it would be identical if the statement was; some that are born will be sinners. That would be a very correct statement but it can only be verified when using hindsight.

It's the same with the satanic statement. If you look back, it is plain obvious that some are born as a satanist and some aren't. The problem is that if you see a newborn, one can't predict jackshit. If one gets a kid, one can give it whatever upbringing or whatever education but none of those will guarantee a certain philosophical outcome. So basically the satanic statement is a hindsight statement.

I do think genetics play a bigger role than most people assume and while religion or philosophy might be learned, a tendency for religion might be a matter of genetics, like a tendency for violence. It's of course not so simple that one has a satanic gene, like there is no gay gene. Still, being gay can hardly be called a matter of choice and has very little to do with upbringing too, so why would being satanic not work according to a similar 'natural' routine?

D.

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#18363 - 01/17/09 03:20 PM Re: anyone seen this book [Re: Diavolo]
Draculesti Offline
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 Quote:
It's the same with the satanic statement. If you look back, it is plain obvious that some are born as a satanist and some aren't. The problem is that if you see a newborn, one can't predict jackshit. If one gets a kid, one can give it whatever upbringing or whatever education but none of those will guarantee a certain philosophical outcome. So basically the satanic statement is a hindsight statement.


Perhaps you are right, D. If you look at it a certain way, it is not at all dissimilar to something like musical talent. Either you're born with it, or you're not. Sure, you can dick around with an instrument and maybe you'll be able to produce a few pleasant sounds from it, but you'll never be playing in any good bands or professional orchestras.

 Quote:
I do think genetics play a bigger role than most people assume and while religion or philosophy might be learned, a tendency for religion might be a matter of genetics, like a tendency for violence. It's of course not so simple that one has a satanic gene, like there is no gay gene. Still, being gay can hardly be called a matter of choice and has very little to do with upbringing too, so why would being satanic not work according to a similar 'natural' routine?


I agree, to a certain extent. Of course there is neither a satanic gene, nor a gay gene, but while sexual orientation is not a choice, matters of religion and philosophy are (Christians would call this "free will"). Of course, like with any philosophical principle, you must be able to back up why you agree (or disagree) with a sound argument. It is not enough to say "I am a Satanist, and I agree with the principles of Satanism because...well, just because." Is it a sound argument for a Christian to say "I am a Christian because I was born into the church"? I was born into the Catholic church myself, but I don't consider myself one. Is that just tough shit on my part; am I still a Christian, even though I don't choose to be one, simply because I was born into the church? Remember, religion and philosophy are not "natural"; they are man-made concepts, and are, therefore, not subject to natural laws.
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#18365 - 01/17/09 04:28 PM Re: anyone seen this book [Re: Draculesti]
Morgan Offline
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Registered: 08/29/07
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"At birth, we know nothing of religion, morality, ethics, philosophy, sex, etc. We operate on a completely instinctual level. Things like philosophy and religion are not instinctual. We must learn these things. Whether we agree with or dispute these things is not something we are born with, it is a reaction to what we have learned."

The above is your opinion.

There is my two sisters and myself.
I am a satanist, one sister is a just for show catholic, the other is a born again fundie. I'm this way over 25 years now (if I say how long really, it gives away my age), my just for show sister just is, she doesn't think about it, she just follows. My born again sister is just maybe 2 or 3 years on that path.

I think it goes beyond a matter of nature verses nurture. If you want to bring instinctual response into the mix, then would it also depend on intellectual awareness and thought. The decision to make a choice based upon your ideas within any given situation.

Just because it takes "Joe" 10 years to understand himself doesn't mean it takes "Jill" 10 years to find themselves.

"that Satanism, like most everything else, is learned or developed?"

Of course, part of Satanism has to do with constant learning and developement of an individual. On that same note, not everyone starts with a blank slate, some kids are just more brighter than others.

I always thought church was a joke, and the priest was a dick. It still suprises my mother about how much I remember from when I was really little. I refuse to believe I was/am not this way since birth.

Morgan

anyone else with family examples?
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